NASCAR Discussion

TuxTshirt wrote: This is racing, not time trials.

Or Time Attack

Lol sorry Sim, I feel a little bad, but I still had to say it.

At least you feel bad about it - that's an improvement!

And, Tux, I didn't say anyone on this thread did. Please don't take it personally, 'cause it wasn't meant that way...

Anyway, what has me most upset about this is the inconsistency. You don't want me to say there is a conspiracy, but they dropped the yellow last week at Texas on two occasions for non-existent debris in Turn 4 (atleast once because Jeff Gordon reported it when BK was leading), but this week they won't drop it for a car facing the wrong direction in the middle of the track? Or when Gordon hit the wall and had debris flying off his car? C'mon...

NASCAR is after the money - which is okay - and they play to those who have it. I guess I am alone in this belief on this thread, but I am far from being alone elsewhere...

Whoa - say what???

Okay, this is just B.S. This is the bias I am talking about. They slapped Gordon on the wrist (and he has done this kind of stuff before) and fined BK for having a cell phone??? Are you f'ing serious? Where the hell was this fine earlier when he tweeted after the JPM jet-dryer incident??? F'in B.S...


http://www.nascar.com/news/121112/nascar-penalizes-jgordon-cbowyer-bkeselowski/index.html

Well, since no one seems to have video of the initial hit where Gordon's tire got cut down, I'll make my opinion known on what I do know.


1. NASCAR has always been a "Have at it boys" racing series. It's not F1, it's not MotoGP, its a series that is proud of its "redneck" heritage and sometimes there is only one way to settle a fight, and that's either one of two ways, wrecking or fighting, and you got both.

2. Bowyer should have let it go. It was cheap enough (in my opinion) that his crew came and did his dirty work for him...but jumping Gordon from behind smells too strongly of sour grapes. You want to let the boys fight, then let them fight. Crews vs Crews, Driver vs Driver.

3. According to the article here, Gordon says, and I quote

"Things just got escalated over the year and I'd just had it," Gordon said. "Clint has run into me numerous times, wrecked me, and he got into me on the back straightaway and pretty much ruined our day. I've had it. [I was] fed up with it and I got him back."

Assuming this is true, it may be a simple case of seeing red. In that way to be honest, I'm shocked it doesn't happen more. NASCAR is a rough-n-tumble racing series. It's not clean cut and if thats what NASCAR is trying to do, they should quit. It's not how the drivers are trained, and its not how the cars are designed. The drivers train on dirt and mud, the cars have carburetors and solid rear axles. They slide, bump, and rub their way to victory and if a driver feels the law isn't being laid down, then they need to do it themselves.

4. I don't know NASCAR personalities all that well, but after doing about 30 seconds worth of digging, I find this statement by Mr. Michael Waltrip to be laughable at best, half-witted and inane at worst.

Michael Waltrip wrote:"I've never seen anything like what Jeff Gordon did to a guy racing for a championship," he said. "[It was a] cowardly, chicken move by someone who has raced for championships before and knows how important every position is. "They barely brush on the back straightway and he purposely waits -- tells everybody [on radio] he's waiting -- and wrecks our car and our hopes for racing for a championship. I'm beside myself."

This is hilarious...because as I said 30 seconds and I find this on good ol' Wikipedia...

• Waltrip had a much-publicized feud with Jeff Green, then driver of Petty Enterprises No. 43 Cheerios/Betty Crocker Dodge Charger in the early part of the 2005 season, which came to a head during races at Martinsville and Darlington, where Green and Waltrip wrecked each other on several occasions
  
• In the 2005 Sylvania 300, Waltrip wrecked Robby Gordon's No. 7 Jim Beam Chevrolet after the yellow flag had come out.
  
• In 2008, Waltrip was parked in a race in Richmond for his deliberate hit on Casey Mears.
  
• In the 2008 Sharpie 500, an irate Clint Bowyer, who was involved in a wreck involving Waltrip, said "Michael Waltrip is the worst driver in NASCAR period! Could not believe NAPA (his primary sponsor) signed him back on!" However, Bowyer joined Waltrip's race team in 2012.

Not to mention his 2007 "Rocket Fuel" controversy. Sounds to me like Michael Waltrip is a wrecker himself who can't hold on to his own temper.


To be honest, as an outsider, watching Bowyer running to "get his" made him, not Gordon look like an idiot.

http://www.nascar.com/video/post-race/race-rewind/121111/cup-pho2-rewind/index.html

First contact at 9:40 mark. No tires down yet...

Second contact at 9:54 mark , Gordon into wall.

Retaliation follows...

BUT - got back to 9:24 mark (which, due to editing, is after Gordon hit the wall...) and try to find the flat tire Gordon is complaining about - I can't...



Furthermore, what incidents is Gordon talking about? Martinsville in the spring?? The incidental contact between him and Bowyer (caused by Gordon and Kahne rubbing) in Texas??? Gordon is full of it...

Well, the video is grainy, and since there is a body over the tire, I can't spot it either.

After watching that I understand why people are upset with Gordon and Bowyer, but what a clusterfuck that end was.

If I were NASCAR, and I'm not, you know who would be getting penalties for next race? Gordon a 25 place penalty for revenge, Bowyer a 30 place penalty for getting out of the car with intent to injure, 10 for Burton for spinning Patrick which caused oil, Biffle and Martin 7 for charging a wreck (last lap I get it, but its a safety thing right?) Menard and Kurt Busch 15 for slamming into slower traffic (safety again...), and a 1 spot penalty for Edwards as a slap on the wrist for flying through there too.


NASCAR wants to get serious about safety right? Start handing out penalties...it'll stop.

In my opinion, if you look at the footage at 9:24 in that clip, you can see that the tires are holding air. Furthermore, Gordon sure had a lot of control when he pitted Bowyer. I don't think his tire went flat at all. To me, it looks like Bowyer rubbed Gordon and Gordon didn't like it. He then tried to pit Bowyer, but ended up losing it himself and hit the wall. He then went after Bowyer...

I'm sorry, but if this was anyone else (Kyle Busch, anyone?) They'd have sat him. 100K to a driver like Gordon is nothing. He would have made more than that just showing for yesterday's race. And 25 Championship points? Really? He's already out of contention...

He should have been benched. Period. And he really should have been penalized to start off the next season. I'm sorry, but I think Smus is right. If NASCAR wants this stuff to stop, it has to quit handing out these stupid good-for-nothing penalties...

And the BK phone thing? Really? They'll fine that, but will let Gordon off with what amounts to a half-assed warning?

This is worse than the star HS athelete getting an A in all his classes that he never even showed up for...

Oh Sim...the Luddites at the National Association of Stock Car Racing are mighty afraid of this devils work known as technology. You know it can make cars faster...

Does NASCAR do penalties other than points? F1 does all the time. Need to change an engine or gearbox before you're scheduled time? 5 spot grid penalty. Run out of fuel on your qualifying lap? Looks like you're starting from the back of the grid. Wreck someone recklessly or intentionally? 5-10 spot penalty for the next race.

Smus wrote:Does NASCAR do penalties other than points? F1 does all the time. Need to change an engine or gearbox before you're scheduled time? 5 spot grid penalty. Run out of fuel on your qualifying lap? Looks like you're starting from the back of the grid. Wreck someone recklessly or intentionally? 5-10 spot penalty for the next race.

If you need to change an engine or gearbox or the whole car before the race, you go to the very back of the field. Other penalties vary based on the rule that was broken and NASCAR's interpretation.

Simcik wrote:In my opinion, if you look at the footage at 9:24 in that clip, you can see that the tires are holding air. Furthermore, Gordon sure had a lot of control when he pitted Bowyer. I don't think his tire went flat at all. To me, it looks like Bowyer rubbed Gordon and Gordon didn't like it. He then tried to pit Bowyer, but ended up losing it himself and hit the wall. He then went after Bowyer...

I'm sorry, but if this was anyone else (Kyle Busch, anyone?) They'd have sat him. 100K to a driver like Gordon is nothing. He would have made more than that just showing for yesterday's race. And 25 Championship points? Really? He's already out of contention...

He should have been benched. Period. And he really should have been penalized to start off the next season. I'm sorry, but I think Smus is right. If NASCAR wants this stuff to stop, it has to quit handing out these stupid good-for-nothing penalties...

And the BK phone thing? Really? They'll fine that, but will let Gordon off with what amounts to a half-assed warning?

This is worse than the star HS athelete getting an A in all his classes that he never even showed up for...

Do you think Gordon wrecked Bowyer just for the sake of wrecking him? Really? Do you? Do you think it was just "fun" for him? Lead up to this incident doesn't always make the broadcast, but interviews and radio chatter tell the story. You're arguing for the sake of arguing. WAS his tire holding air? You've heard of leaks right? Doesn't have to be a blow out. That's not the point. Watch your replay. Did Bowyer have to track Gordon into the wall exiting two? The answer is no. That's black and white. Who gives a flying fuck if his tires were holding air for half of the straightaway. Gordon over reacted, Bowyer provoked it. You mention Kyle Busch. Kyle Busch has done it sooooooooooooooo many times. Not a fair comparison. What would you have NASCAR do to Gordon, hang him? Yeah, yeah, I know, sit him for a race. You're comparing that to KyBu. Again, not a fair comparison. Gordo wasn't on probation and hadn't wrecked cars previously.

The BK penalty is intereseting. There is a rule about having electronic devices in the car. I can't see one reason that a racecar driver needs his damn cell phone in a racecar during a race other than publicity. This is one inconsistency you can mention however, because he had a phone in his car at Daytona and didn't get penalized. Maybe if he kept his mouth shut after the race he wouldn't be penalized. It's funny he mentions safety when he almost killed Carl Edwards and a few fans at Talladega. They're going a third of that speed in turn four at Phoenix. Either way, you shouldn't care, it's a silly fine for a rich guy that's about to win the championship.

Smus wrote:Oh Sim...the Luddites at the National Association of Stock Car Racing are mighty afraid of this devils work known as technology. You know it can make cars faster...

Smus, your clear anti-NASCAR, stereotyping makes it almost worth not discussing with you. Oh, and stock cars use fuel injection now.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...



You're way wrong there, Tux. I don't think you can say any of the times Carl wrecked, Brad wrecked him intentionally. If you try to block a guy, and you wreck because you tried to block him too late, that's on you, not the other guy...

Edwards almost killed Brad. Not the other way around...

FYI, I think the two flips were caused more by the poor design of the COT cars. That spoiler/wing thing they tried was a terrible idea. Take that off, and neither of them flip. (Also, Edwards got hit by the car behind him, which didn't help...)

Simcik wrote:And, Tux, I didn't say anyone on this thread did. Please don't take it personally, 'cause it wasn't meant that way...

Anyway, what has me most upset about this is the inconsistency. You don't want me to say there is a conspiracy, but they dropped the yellow last week at Texas on two occasions for non-existent debris in Turn 4 (atleast once because Jeff Gordon reported it when BK was leading), but this week they won't drop it for a car facing the wrong direction in the middle of the track? Or when Gordon hit the wall and had debris flying off his car? C'mon...

NASCAR is after the money - which is okay - and they play to those who have it. I guess I am alone in this belief on this thread, but I am far from being alone elsewhere...

I agree they're inconsistent. However, they are consistent more than they're not. I won't agree that it's because of some BS conspiracy. Picking winners? Please. Sell that somewhere else. If that were true, Dale Jr. would win almost every race. You also should note the inconsistencies you mention. Which tracks and where on the tracks are the incidents taking place? Don't hear me disagreeing about Phoenix, but they have to consider the speeds and track conditions all within a few seconds. Perhaps my standards aren't as high as yours. Hey, if it's soooo terrible, go watch F1, they're perfect.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Carl moved down AND Brad moved up. Clear as day in the slow motion replay. Carl went to block and Brad straightened his car in a turn.

And to answer your question - no, he didn't do it just because, he did cause he in a train wreck waiting to happen. He has always had a short fuse and volatile emotions his whole career (Did you watch HMS: Beyond 200 on Speed???), and he definitely lost it here. What Bowyer did was in no way deserving of being wrecked. I thought the first contact between the two was incidental. The second was on Gordon. How does that give Gordon the right to wreck him like that???

And the reason I brought up the tire thing is because Gordon said "he [Bowyer] cut the tire!" after the first contact (though he clearly didn't), and even after the second contact, his tire was still holding air...

I have no idea why they were racing so hard, but this is clearly on Gordon... And NASCAR for not dropping the yellow or having the balls to stand up to the drivers... Ugh, now I'm really irked. They go after Kes for a phone (fining him 25% of what they fined Gordon), but hardly penalize Gordon??? How is that not biased? I am sorry, but I hate these damn "good ol' boys" clubs like this... If a rules is on the book, it should apply for everyone. If there is a standard, that should be the standard for everyone...

Jimmie was upset that Brad raced him hard at Texas, but you didn't see him wreck him... Maybe I am not giving JJ enough credit for atleast being honarable on the track...

TuxTshirt wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa. Carl moved down AND Brad moved up. Clear as day in the slow motion replay. Carl went to block and Brad straightened his car in a turn.

1:07.5 :: Brad, still on the bottom (use the white lines for reference), and Carl hit. Carl is clearly spinning from right to left across Brad.

1:09 :: Brad begins to move up the track, Carl is already out of control in front of him. They only barely touch again, on Brad's right front and Carl's left rear. No way you wouldn't make the same move in a similar situation. What do you want him to do, drive into Carl's driver-side door???

Why do you think Dale Jr. moved to HMS???

Duh, Conspriracy 101!!!

Where's the guy in a trenchcoat smiley???

TuxTshirt wrote:

Smus wrote:Oh Sim...the Luddites at the National Association of Stock Car Racing are mighty afraid of this devils work known as technology. You know it can make cars faster...

Smus, your clear anti-NASCAR, stereotyping makes it almost worth not discussing with you. Oh, and stock cars use fuel injection now.

Oh I'm just pokin you with a stick

However, you bring up that NASCAR is using fuel injection now and we all know you need an ECU to run the fuel injection...or a basic computer at bare minimum. But in the story on NASCAR.com they quote the regulations as saying "Brad Keselowski was fined $25,000 and placed on probation until Dec. 31 for violating Sections 12-1 and 20-6.7A (cars and drivers will not be permitted to carry onboard computers, automated electronic recording devices, electronically actuated devices, power distribution modules, power conditioners, micro-processors, recording devices, electronic digital memory chips, traction control devices, digital readout gauges and the like, even if inoperable or incomplete). Keselowski had a cell phone in his race car." So using a fuel injection system at least in the rules that were quoted is illegal.


I'm just one that thinks it would be cool if the car manufacturers were required to use engines they actually sell. Think about running a tube-frame car, with the Fusions running the EcoBoost V6, Chevy's the new LT series motor, Dodge the Hemi or maybe even a FIAT SpA sourced motor (Ferrari anyone?) and Toyota running any one of their V6's or V8's. Better yet if they had to take steps towards homologation with actual vehicles...but that topic has been beaten more than this horse.

Ok fanboy. I'm done. BK, greatest ever. NASCAR and HMS are in bed and the whole thing's a conspiracy. See what you want to see. If you can't see something as obvious as a guy running a guy up the track when it's not necessary, you certainly won't see any fault in your most favoritist driver of all time not giving an inch at 200 mph. Post what you wish, I'm going to bed.

OH, and F1 is perfect...just ask me

TuxTshirt wrote:Ok fanboy. I'm done. BK, greatest ever. NASCAR and HMS are in bed and the whole thing's a conspiracy. See what you want to see. If you can't see something as obvious as a guy running a guy up the track when it's not necessary, you certainly won't see any fault in your most favoritist driver of all time not giving an inch at 200 mph. Post what you wish, I'm going to bed.

At least in F1 in the past you pretty much know they pull for Ferrari...



Oh, and I was wondering, is Michael Waltrip a commentator?

Michael Waltrip is not a comentator, but Daryll Waltrip is... He's the one who says "boogity, boogity, boogity!"

And c'mon now, Tux. I like Brad, but I'm not being a fan-boy about the cell phone or the Edwards things. Like I said, would you have driven into him, or tried to stay out of the wreck? And he did lift there, you can see the driver's behind him catch up. When you're going sideways at 200mph, you bleed off speed alot quicker than when you're going forward...

And, yeah, that is a good point Smus. Wonder why they haven't fined anyone else for their obvious violations? Add that to the conspiracy evidence!

BTW, where the hell are the rest of the NASCAR fans? This is not the Tux vs. Sim NASCAR thread... How about some other input?

Not that talking to Tux isn't fun and all, but c'mon... He loves Jimmie and Chevy, I love Brad and Dodge - it will never end...