Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

I would disagree on the clutch part Tux, I've smoked many a clutch and you can feel it. If it gets hot, you lose the bite just like you do with brakes, and the pedal feel goes out the window.

Its not as much an issue with a race clutch, but then it becomes an on/off switch almost. No real modulation.

Simcik wrote:Actually, with a force-feedback wheel, you can feel when the car starts to step out. …

Input devices are one thing but

TuxTshirt wrote:…Truth is, the real feedback to the driver is in the wheel, the sound, their vision, and the forces on their body.

this is the direction I was going with my usage of feel. My body doesn't feel a thing while gaming. Programmers have substituted other sensory inputs for physical feel and having a force-feedback wheel does help.

StalkerStang wrote:I would disagree on the clutch part Tux, I've smoked many a clutch and you can feel it. If it gets hot, you lose the bite just like you do with brakes, and the pedal feel goes out the window.

Its not as much an issue with a race clutch, but then it becomes an on/off switch almost. No real modulation.

Agreed. Of course a smoked clutch would act and feel different, I should have specified more. Hydraulic or mechanical failure. Sims don't typically simulate that. The main point of my statement was that there's not much feedback in any pedal unless there's a failure. I guess the only way this would be useful in a sim is in the case before total failure. Perhaps, as the driver, you could feel your equipment going away and baby it a bit. Real drivers do this. But in the case of just racing, there's no real feedback in the pedals other than the brake.

Right. I think though if you want to simulate, I guess if you over use the clutch or what not, it will get hot over time and start to lose its clamping force.

But then again, I'm afraid of these guys getting in over their head and simulating these things incorrectly, then it just becomes annoying.

Better written descriptions in both upgrades and tuning. In terms of tuning, we get to adjust ride height along a sliding scale with fixed minimum and maximum settings. Okay, so where are my [5.8] inches of ride height? Between the bottom of the car and the ground? Between the tire and the bump stop? Also important, how much of the ride height is absorbed by spring travel? All of it? Half of it? Two thirds of it? All but the last inch?

Example:
I've chosen 6.7" of ride height for a car I'm tuning currently and I would like to adjust the spring rate (n pounds needed to compress each spring 1") to absorb the shifting weight of the car (over x inches of spring travel), though that's next to impossible. I'm reminded of those problems in school where "Not enough information" was the answer. That's how I would answer in this case.

I also recall a conversation regarding the descriptions in the displacement upgrades. Some of what's typed has nothing to do with increasing an engine's displacement.

Ooo, ooo, I can actually answer this one!

To determine the spring rate needed, set up an equation in which the mass (not weight: weight = mass x the acceleration of gravity) of the car [m] is multiplied by the acceleration of the mass downward [z](the rate of change at which the suspension is compressing) and add this value to the damping ratio [b] multiplied by the velocity [y] at which the suspension is compressing, and finally, add the value for your spring constant [k] multiplied by the amount of compression (displacement) [x] and set it all equal to zero.

The equation is then -m*z + b*y + k*x = 0.

You can use this equation, and the basic equations of motion (position, velocity, and acceleration) to determine how the car will react for any given combination of values. In your case, the mass of the car is not changing, and you can input your dampening ratio. Finding the motion of the is rather straight forward to. Since you know how much displacement during compression you want (1" as stated above), you can determine the velocity and acceleration of the suspension components based on the amount of time you would want this displacement to occur in. (You could choose this amount of time arbitrarily, or you could solve for it.) Once you have all of that, you can plug in the values and solve for k, the spring constant, then extrapolate that to the spring pressure in Forza. It sounds complicated, but it's really not that bad... I can help you with it more later...

Oh, also, if you wanted to, you could set up a few circumstances (Say, one for each corner on a track?) and alter the equations to fit each one, then solve for all the variables at once. This would give you the most ideal setup for a given track. Just be aware that this is only applicable if you have more equations than variables.

Also, please note that during steady-state cornering, there is no velocity component. This is why adjusting your dampers has no effect on mid-corner steering.

In a steady-state corner, or at any other time where the compression is not changing - like hard braking - the b*y component will be equal to 0.

While there is no velocity component, there is always accleration (due to gravity), so the z term stays, even in steady-state conditions.

So, if you want your maximum compression to be 1" during steady-state conditions, set your equation up as m*z = k*x and solve for k. Violia - desired spring rate.

Note that m*z = weight.

Also note that "g's" (as used in lateral grip measurements) is an accerlation rate. A 1.2G measurement is 1.2 * the acceleration of gravity .

If you car can handle 1.08g's in a turn, and you want x amount of compression at this point, alter the above equation to m*1.08*g = k*x.

Sim,

The mass isn't changing but the down force on the car is. Down force will effect spring rates the same as sprung mass.

^^^^^^ I got sidetracked when I tried factoring in pi, and now I never want to eat pie again.




That's a heck of a lot of information, if I could ever figure it out that would be a great thing to know for iRacing. I just can't follow any of that right now. Could be sleep deprivation and the fact it's way past my bedtime.

So, I see that maybe there wasn't a question asked... Oh well, I answered one anyway...

If you want some more explanation for what I am talking about, look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equations_of_motion

Sorta05 wrote:Sim,

The mass isn't changing but the down force on the car is. Down force will effect spring rates the same as sprung mass.

That is correct. These are idealized equations. They don't take into account changing mass, the viscosity of air, and a few other things, but for this case, they should do fine. And if you'd like to, Avanti, you can modify the mass based on speed and downforce and set the eqations up as an interval to account for the change in relative mass over time. Or, you could find your maximum downforce and alter the mass based on this. This spring rate will yield the desired compression only at maximum downforce, though...

Remaggib wrote:^^^^^^ I got sidetracked when I tried factoring in pi, and now I never want to eat pie again.




That's a heck of a lot of information, if I could ever figure it out that would be a great thing to know for iRacing. I just can't follow any of that right now. Could be sleep deprivation and the fact it's way past my bedtime.

Well, unless your working in radians or polar coordinates, you don't need pi. I am hungry now, though...

That's awesome Sim. So, you answered an unasked question. I actually enjoy getting into this sort of stuff, so thank you for the information. I'd be open to borrowing your knowledge and getting a suspension set up. 1" was only an example as really I'd love to know how Turn 10 coded this information and arrive at spring rates to dissipate the G loads over n number of spring travel. Example: a 3300 pound car, capable of 1.103 lateral-Gs, with 4.5" of spring travel. Unfortunately we don't know a few things: the distance Forza's springs travel (related to the game's ride height) and if the tuning spring rate is the rate at the wheel or the rate needed at the spring's perch?

As a related side note, Race Pro further broke down dampener settings (×4 independent corners too, no less) into high speed and low speed compression as well as high speed and low speed rebound (if I'm recalling correctly). I think that is pretty cool, as one could set dampeners to react firmly for a rapid road irregularity and more forgiving for a low, drawn-out road irregularity.

Since we're talking about tuning. Something cool that iRacing has is the download for Atlas. Atlas is the software program that F1 teams use to import telemetry data into. You can then record telemetry in the simulator, import that to your downloaded Atlas program, then analyze your setup. I haven't used any of it yet, but my one buddy has just to see what it looks like. It looks awesome. Seeing as Forza has telemetry, it wouldn't be too far fetched to believe they could do it too. Make it recordable in game, then save to USB for import to Atlas. Maybe the next Forza will have that.

Atlas sounds cool. Those features almost sound like what could be done if Turn 10 would add Pro Racing Sim and Motion Software to their list of partners.

In an XBox scenario there could be a few different programs we purchase (Ex: Forza [5 or 6] for $60, FastLap for $30, DragSim for $30, or all packaged for $85) and make use of file export/import from the XBox hard drive. Should this route be taken, it should be possible for Forza to function 100% without the use of the other programs, as they should only be used to enhance the Forza experience.

Edit: Good suspension stuff in this program user manual: http://www.proracingsim.com/downloads/FastLapSim-UsersManual.pdf

Edit 2: I just heard about this company, http://automationgame.com/ They make an interesting piece o' software too.

Better representations of historical tracks. One of this month's rivals events reminded me. Bob Bondurant may have driven the Cobra Daytona Coupe at Laguna Seca, though he raced the version where today's turn 2 (Andretti hairpin) linked directly to today's turn 5.

People racing historical vehicles may like to visit tracks in their historical configuration.

The best F4 example I can think of is Hokenheim...the track originally was something like 5+ miles with the teck tracing off into the woods with some extremely long straights, enough to make a track like Road America blush.

Another thing I'd like to see would be the inclusion of former tracks in the Forza series like Blue Mountain Raceway and Tokyo Circuit...

Le Mans has old and new. Sadly I expect it's a lot harder to re create stuff that doesn't exist anymore.

Photos and videos do exist of racing, and the scenery, at historic tracks. I would be willing to bet Turn 10 could create historic: Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Sebring, Mid-Ohio, and Riverside International Raceway.

Speaking of historic tracks … a gaming company in '98 was going to release a game called Trans-Am Racing: 68 - 72 and they were looking at replicating the historic venues. Also, there is NASCAR Legends with created historic tracks such as R.I.R. Oh to have those old beauties come to the light of Forza Motorsport. That would be incredible.

New tangent- Engines may be swapped to some extent already, how about swapping transmissions? A swapped stock transmission would only allow two upgrades, street and sport. These would allow for the faster shift time and to allow the differential gears to be adjusted. Who knows though, the differential may be separated further in the next Motorsport at which point the sport upgrade would no longer apply.

The '70 Corvette has the M-21. That transmission should be able to be dropped into other cars which used Muncie transmissions.
The '93 Mustang Cobra had a Borg Warner (bought by Tremec) T-5. Other cars that use the T-5 should have that as an option.
Other car companies have shared transmissions within their companies. Some transmission manufacturers have deals across different auto manufacturers.

You just want my A-833, don't ya?

How about a "back when" box? Give us a path of upgrades allowing for period correct components: Race transmissions as 3-speeds, 4-speeds ('40s - '60s) and 5-speeds ('70s-ish and later). 16" wheels first appeared (for street cars) in the early '80s and 17" wheels in the '90s, yeah? Race teams had 15" and 16" wheels (and tires with large sidewalls) through the '60s and '70s. Morris Mini Coopers were equipped with 13" wheels and that was about it. You know, stuff like that.

Graphical User Interface: When we swap an engine into a car and don't have those Engine and Power upgrades, even if we've bought Engine and Power upgrades for the car's default engine. These are upgrades we must activate by first purchasing the swapping engine. A "back when" box at the end of the upgrade section would allow us to upgrade a '70s car as if it was the '70s. The "back when" box would unlock a different path of upgrades.

In the livery editor

A cookie cutter option. Example- Select the square. Make it large and paint it blue (like the Union of Old Glory). Select the star shape. Hover over the blue square and press a button. This cuts out the star shape from the blue square; repeat 49 more times.

Now we have one layer (a blue square) with star-shaped holes. A white square, only slightly smaller than the blue square, placed behind the blue square gives us the Union of Old Glory in two layers rather than fifty-one. This would allow us to create 'negatives' a lot easier.

How bout we just use a .jpg image file that we edit outside of Forza? They've got a lot of info online, why not make it like EA does with their game where you can damn near play it off-line. You could browse the Auction House or Storefront from your PC, download straight to the game the next time you log in, etc.

Anyway, the old Jane's flight simulators (and many other PC games) used a single "skin" file for each object. It was mapped out in the game, and all you had to do to change it was alter the file. It was one layer. You could change it with Paint, or any other editor. To me, this seems like the way to go. You could have a 2D image of the car's skin that you could edit all you like, and save different files, which the game could see. When you wanted to load a certain paint, you could place it in the active slot.

This is how the system worked for the Jane's games, and they had a lot less computing power to work with.

The only limitation I can think of is that when you played online, other would not see your paint schemes, rather, they would see whatever they had saved on their machines. I am sure there is a way this could be solved.

This type of system would allow for uber-realistic liveries, and since only one layer is being loaded, rather than 5000 (max), it could save computing power and reduce lag time when loading.

Just my $0.02...

Here's a few images of the files I was talking about. This particular plane from Jane's USAF had two mapped image files, and they were altered to match a real-world squadron. The image files and the resulting in-game plane are shown.

Haha - that's not even that good a skin, now that I look at it closer. It still illustrates the point though.

And FYI, the light blue color was used for "clear," which Avanti would love. Whatever you painted that color was invisible. Yes, you could paint the whole plane invisible...

↑ I love me some F-16

Papyrus' NASCAR Racing (the first one) was like that. The cars were "skinned" as one layer. NASCAR Racing had an associated paintshop but it was more fun opening the files in other programs. People could alter their car picture files with image manipulating software; software that was available circa '94 anyhow. Also keep in mind the game was only working with 8-bit color depth.

The game utilized a reference file so any created picture file would need to be in the program’s set folder with a set file name. To keep from overwriting images the trick was to keep a separate folder full of image files with their descriptive names. To place an alternate skin in the game one would copy the file to the game folder, delete the game’s picture file, and rename your recently copied file to the required name.

I have 300+ files so I won’t share them all. These aren't thumbnails, I only removed the outer frame of the picture. The originals are 320 × 200 as the whole program only ran in 640 × 480. Some that came with the game:

Pace Car
Terry Labonte
Mark Martin
Jeff Gordon
Michael Waltrip

Some user created skins:

You can see in a few above, people would draw in a driver behind the window net. The game only had 3 chassis: Pontiac Grand Prix, Chevrolet Monte Carlo, and Ford Thunderbird. The folks who created the Days of Thunder cars changed the nose to reflect the Lumina of a few years before.

I remember enlisting the help of my dad. He had a flatbed scanner and I wanted the Blackhawks Indian head on the hood of my car. We used a jersey I had (still do), scanned it and saved it as an 8-bit picture. I just couldn’t find a way to import the picture into the game.

In today’s world it’d be easy to do such a thing if the gaming companies allowed us the ability. Kinect can see and render objects set in front of it. Scanners come in flatbed or as handheld wands, and our games are far beyond 8-bit images. But let’s think about this for a moment. An editor that allows for virtually unlimited designing and importing leaves very little for the gaming companies. There must be a compromise somewhere.

A separate wheel and tire shop, not just a categorical box listed under every car. Their current method skips sizes on some cars to cover a wider overall spectrum.
Turn 10 should give us many tire sizes, from circa 145 to 375 and beyond. It would then be up to the user to fit correct size tires on their car.