Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Just like other engine builders who get a bad rep...itbwould be easy to weed them out.

As for making it fun for non-nerds, you make it easy as flipping a switch. You have different modes like arcade, normal (forza now), and full sim (what we would like)

Smus wrote:… As for making it fun for non-nerds, you make it easy as flipping a switch. You have different modes like arcade, normal (forza now), and full sim (what we would like)

Before I start on the mode specifics, let's think about what's coming in September. I have a sneaking suspicion that Forza Horizon is being created to pull away those who wouldn't understand nor care for a full sim racer. If that is true Horizon will be one component of "flipping a switch." Turn 10 essentially has said, "Let's make Forza Motorsport more realistic while keeping the Forza franchise an automotive sandbox." Turn 10 ran into this Jaws situation- "We're gonna need a bigger boat." I feel Horizon is one component of their bigger boat.

Having different modes is a great idea. Let's shine more light down this rabbit hole and examine it with a magnifying glass. If different game settings become reality, how does each mode differ and are there specific advantages to increasing difficulty? The first half is a loaded question with no right answer, only options. "Yes" is my answer for the second half.

Forza 4 has advantages of increasing difficulty. Racing in "manual w/ clutch" mode rewards time advantages over "manual" mode and "automatic" mode. I believe Forza 4's successor could be released in such a way that more advanced options have slight advantages over any less sophisticated option. Here's an idea that throws a lure into the water. Make every option visible in every mode. When lower levels are selected, grey-out and emboss more advanced options into the background; that should pique people's interest into digging deeper.

That would make sense to me...why not have a reward to a player for selecting a harder difficulty, much like the current setup with the added percentages and total percent gained in terms of credit payout.


I am hoping youre right with the whole "we're gonna need a bigger boat" line...I really do hope Forza Horizion is just a massive world, filled with curvy roads, fast cars, and loose women to keep the children at bay. I think the biggest issue would be what you brought up, in running different difficulty levels against one another. I suppose the beauty of the current system is the ability to simplify things for coding. Want full line? Got it. Don't want ABS? Got it. All "basic" things are easy enough to make a level playing field, especially in the large online community.


One thing I would really love a lot is just the ability to dictate things on pit stops. Be able to say "no fuel, just tires" to speed up stops, or to be able to adjust aerodynamics to add or take away downforce...or better yet, and I know this will come as a shock to most of you, how about a pit crew that knows basic body repair? They can swap an engine and transmission in under 25 seconds, but have no idea how to use a roll of duct tape. Maybe have a "train your pit crew" option?

Smus wrote:… One thing I would really love a lot is just the ability to dictate things on pit stops. Be able to say "no fuel, just tires" to speed up stops, or to be able to adjust aerodynamics …

Here you literally mean, talk to the game? Tom Clancy's EndWar allowed exactly that and it was released in 2008. The user could give verbal commands so they could quickly give orders like sending units to a waypoint, garrisoning troops inside a barracks, and more. During warmer months I played it with my windows open. I'm sure the neighbors heard me yelling military orders and thought, "What the Hell is going down?"

A voice feature would be great for single player Forza though difficult in an online event. In online racing the back button is not used so it could be mapped for two simultaneous functions: 1) instantly substituting a "virtual you" to take over racing and 2) bringing up a translucent (so you can somewhat see through) splash screen of pit options. The "virtual you" would have to be similar to the drivatar feature from Forza Motorsport. The splash screen could then be controlled with buttons to give orders to your crew.

In both modes, a scrolling marquee along the top of your screen would be a huge help. This would allow the game to verify what you'd just told/entered. This way you can see what's in store for you and is a visual representation of your orders. If you made a mistake you can see it and correct it before you must return to the pits due to a miscommunication.

I was thinking more along the lines of button presses. In the F1 2010 game, as a driver you were able to select not only specific tires on the fly before entering the pits, but you were also able to choose fuel mapping, and make front wing adjustments using the D-pad. Prepping the pit cree was also a 1 button press...all done by Codemasters none the less...

Using voice communications would be sweet though.

Smus wrote:I was thinking more along the lines of button presses. In the F1 2010 game, as a driver you were able to select not only specific tires on the fly before entering the pits, but you were also able to choose fuel mapping, and make front wing adjustments using the D-pad. Prepping the pit cree was also a 1 button press...all done by Codemasters none the less...

Using voice communications would be sweet though.

GT 3 or 4 had something similar to that. I don't think the options were to advanced but you could choose fuel only, tires only or repair and combinations of the three. I'm pretty sure you could even choose how much fuel and of course what you selected impacted how long the pit was, and I think it even gave you an estimate as to how long the pit you selected would take. The pit window came up as soon as you started down pit road and the controls were taken away similar to Forza. So credit where credit is due... I think the GT series already has a pretty good system that would be awesome to have in Forza.

One other thing I've been hoping to see in Forza that GT has is a more refined traction and or stability control system. GT had a slider bar to allow you to choose how much wheel spin you would get. Just as some cars come with fully adjustable suspension etc from the factory this would also be reflected (gumpart already has this) and you could buy as an upgrade under one of the categories (for cars that don't have it) that would allow you to adjust how much wheel spin you get in the tuning settings.

Speaking of more adjust ability how about a sliding bar for the AI too!

Interesting. I havent had a race long enough to have a pit necessary in GT5 so ill havevto try that.

As for slidebar TC, as far as i know Gumpert isctge omly production car with it on..
Theres acwonderful video of a lotus 7 replicacwith the same system installed, its really quite interesting seeing the different settings.

As for AI, i think GT5 should take a cue from Forza...GT5 cars never deviate, if you comevup behind or make a move they follow their line, the Forza 4 AI is pretty darn good...ive had numerous occassiobs in which either the AI car held their line or openly took an alternate line to make a move or to allow one and 9/10 times accidents are caused by me, not the AI.

Most cars have several different modes of traction control. The corvette's have a nob from 1-6 that changes the stability and traction control at the same time ranging from please don't hurt me to I'm a pro (and it's been proven to make pro's faster). So maybe have several steps of upgrades for traction control/stability control and again apply those that are most applicable to those cars that already have a similar system from the oem by default (again just like they do with race cars and they like with suspension in the games upgrade system).

I think the Ascari (not sure on the spelling) also has one similar to the Gumpert.

I'm not sure if GT5 has the pitting features I spoke of. I haven't played it enough to know, I think that stuff was on GT4.

You want to hear about crazy T.C. technology? I was watching a race (it may have been A.L.M.S. at Long Beach) and the announcers were talking about traction control being tied into global positioning systems. The T.C. system knows where the car is on a particular track and the system knows whether the racer will need T.C. or not. It'll come on as the car exits a corner and will turn off a short while later.

I remember the sliding bars in Gran Turismo and the popup window as the car entered the pits. Those would also work.

Didn't F1 do that for braking too a few years ago?

Was is Forza 2 that you could pick different tires from different manufactures? I think that each one had different specs too like tire life and grip. You could buy racing tires from perrelli and Dunlop they could both be race tires but one might last longer while the other one had more grip at lower temps. Why did they get rid of that? If they still had it you could pick tires specific to different tracks.

Sponsorship contract issues most likely... But with 4 Parelli has exclusivity rights so that's why you don't see any other brands offered in the parts shop... Yea they have decals but that's it for the other brands.... I'm surprised the tires aren't called Parelli Street and so on in the buy parts menu

It was indeed Forza Motorsport 2 with the various tire manufacturers. I loved that feature and would enjoy seeing it make a return. In an interview discussing the Pirelli relationship, Dan G. said something to this effect, "We had S.A.E. data, data from Toyo, data from Michelin, data from Goodyear and all that data conflicted with each other." That's why Turn 10 went to one manufacturer for all their data, to eliminate conflicts.

There is a way to give us the multiple manufacturers of Forza Motorsport 2 without data conflicting with each other; I just know it. Hopefully the Turn 10 team can find it.

If you have forgotten or have never seen the Forza Motorsport 2 customization movie, watch it and come back. In the words of Bill & Ted, "It's EXCELLENT!" This connects to the notion I have mentioned about Turn 10 giving us every trim level for the cars they model. Here's where we deviate from the Forza series and borrow a page from the Polyphony Digital playbook.

• Change the graphical user interface in car buying to an experience similar to earlier Gran Turismo titles.
  
• (Re)acquire rights to using aftermarket and small market manufacturers like Brabus, Callaway, Lingenfelter, Mugen, Renntech, and Spoon; those would be great additions.
  
• We have Saleen and recently picked up Henessey. Gemballa and Hamann have been included in the form of aftermarket wheels; those companies do more than that.
  
• Render the wide variety of aftermarket body, engine, or suspension pieces the tuners bring to the table.
  
• Place drop down menus in the car's title allowing us to alter certain aspects in a set range. Drop down options on race cars could allow for number changes.
  

Blend that together and what do you get? You get a Forza experience where the end user walks into the (example) Chevrolet dealership wanting to buy a C4 Corvette. I zoomed out all the way to the generational heading of "C4" because every Corvette between model years 1984 and 1996 had the same basic design; C4 ZR-1 was a bit wider from the doors back and might require a separate rendering. There were just three major interior designs over the thirteen model years. Engines differed though Turn 10 could get away with modeling five: '84 only L83, '85-'91 L98, '90-'95 LT5, '92-'96 LT1, & '96 only LT4. Optionally they could omit LT4 and allow the user to convert an LT1 into an LT4.

Here's a bonus for Turn 10: L98, LT1, and LT4 were used in other G.M. products, cancelling the need to code those engines multiple times. Also, unless a car is going to be an Auto Vista experience, the engine is only data and doesn't need to be visually rendered.

So the user wants to buy a C4 Corvette. Turn 10 has modeled the "greatest common factor" for all C4 Corvettes and the game knows the differences between the model years. Through the user's choices the game can assemble any year C4 Corvette with proper appearance. Want to pay 31,979 credits for a base model 1990 or are you feeling extra rich and can pay an additional 27,016 to buy a 1990 ZR-1? Either way, you can! Can't afford the later year cars but could afford the 21,800 credit 1984 Corvette? Buy that one instead. Want your own 1988 35th anniversary edition? Buy a 1988 coupe, paint the wheels white and opt for the white interior treatment (admittedly the interior color change may be pushing it too much). If buying a base model 1995 for 36,785 credits, the game knows to update with the newer body panels, change the fender louvers and give the newest interior and there ya have a later C4.

Okay, so you have an early C4 Corvette and you want to recreate the Sledgehammer. This is where you could go to the Callaway dealer and pay Callaway's price to install the twin turbo kit and the few different body panels. Viola! Your very own 254 M.P.H. capable C4 Corvette. Browsing through Callaway's showroom you decide to also pick up one of Callaway's other tuned cars.

Forza Motorsport 4 has the 1996 Grand Sport but that's the only one they have, and even through upgrades we can't tune it to Sledgehammer capabilities. Hell, it can't even mimic option B2K, the factory ordered Callaway twin turbo cars less capable than the Sledgehammer, and about on par with ZR-1.

It stinks that many cars could be added with just a change in the thought process and the graphical user interface, but aren't yet. Hopefully someone in the Turn 10 Studios "Skunkworks" room is on the same wavelength and has enough influence to sway the opinion of others.

Pulled from the Events list in Forza Motorsport 4, "This Spec Series pays tribute to Ford's legendary Trans Am racer, the Mustang Boss 429." That would be an incorrect statement.

The Boss 429 was created to homologate the 429 engine for the NASCAR circuit. The Boss 302 was created to run against the Z/28 in Trans Am. I am impressed with Turn 10 Studios in this regard, they do manage to get their hands on rare cars to render (1 of 50, 1 of 499, 1 of 6, etc.)

While that is impressive, isnt the diffetence graphically between the 302 and 427 simply a sticker? I know that other parts play into it like engine sound and the like, but theoretically the same engine used in the 1993 svt mustang, right? Or at least close enough?

Well in the basic yes Smus but more to the Nerdy technicals is that the ride height, front to rear stance, and tires would all be different as well so if they were to render the 429s stiffer suspension and slightly lower nose position then that would be awesome! You know what isnt quit so rare Avanti??? A freaking 340 small block!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im gonna bring up another forza short coming that drives me insane. The drag racing portion kills me. It could be sooo much better.
1. A staging mode with burn out and pulling into staging lights with the possibility of red lighting the tree. (Maybe while using a trans brake?)
2. A working tree.
3. The correct traction and setup to pull the front end off the ground.
4. Model some real life drag cars for a new car pack.
5. At the end of the run leave the page up and also show all required data from your run r/t, 60', 1000ft. MPH and time 1/8mi MPH and time, etc.
6. Nitrous, at the tracks I go to 90% of the cars are running nitrous.
7. (Reason it would be nice to have adjustable nitrous) BRACKET RACING! The ability to blip a 75hp shot to "sandbag" an opponent. Bracket racing would bring life to the game.
8. Model a universal "rail" style chassis and let users place different size engines from the various manufacturers. (Avanti this is where we would need that engine tuning software!!!)
I'm sure I'm missing alot but those things would make the drag racing VERY enjoyable for lots of people I'm sure.

Only problem with trying to render funny cars is that goofs like me would try to Nurburgring that bad boy lol

Simple... Just code that Drag specific cars like Rails and Floppers are in a class specific to Drag Racing like a T/F and F/C so there wouldnt be any way to Ring a Flopper. The T/F and F/C and so on would be coded to only be available when a drag strip is selected. BOOM! Solved

Smus wrote:While that is impressive, isnt the diffetence graphically between the 302 and 427 simply a sticker? I know that other parts play into it like engine sound and the like, but theoretically the same engine used in the 1993 svt mustang, right? Or at least close enough?

The sticker you mentioned, plus the 302 didn't have the hood scoop of the 429. Other than that, the car isn't an Autovista vehicle so the engine doesn't need to be graphically rendered.

Squid's right, the suspension was different and thus the stance is a bit different but that is getting to the point of splitting hairs. Overall weight plays a role. Big block cars usually require a larger radiator which takes more water. They require a larger crankshaft. The oil pan holds more oil and a larger oil filter is needed. The cylinder heads are larger. Those cylinder heads contain cooling jackets where water flows. What I'm saying is, there's a bunch more weight in a big block car that goes beyond the block itself. +3 pounds, +27 pounds, +11 pounds here and there add up quickly.

Good: Turn 10 Studios releases a patch for all big block muscle cars to become small block pony cars.
Better: Turn 10 Studios releases pony cars as their own model; creating year duplicates in the game (Ex. 1969 Camaro Z/28 & SS).
Best: In the successor to Forza Motorsport 4, Turn 10 Studios renders every make/model with all similar years/trims in mind. This allows us to make alterations to our car at time of purchase.

You all know I give Turn 10 a ration but they are the best console option at this time. I'm not complaining because it's junk. Rather, I'd like to see them really push through these barriers and make Polyphony Digital, Atari, SimBin, and everyone else in the market go and feel like a Yes, I said a clown-pig.

New thought:

What if the host of a multiplayer event could open the track paddock to competitors? What if people (friends and/or invitees, or public) could enter the host's track paddock? What if in the paddock the people could tune and replace parts on their car? What if the host could set qualifying in the manner of NASCAR or Indy hosts qualifying, one car at a time for 2-3 laps while other cars wait in hot pits?

I'll be the first to tell you I'm not a NASCAR fan though I am a fan of helping others. Simply because I may not desire or benefit from a feature doesn't mean other people shouldn't have it. If you desire a feature and it makes good sense to be in Forza, I'll fight for your right to have that feature added.

Avanti 63r1025 wrote:New thought:
I'll fight for your right to have that feature added.

And to party

Right on Avanti!

Ex US Squid wrote:

Avanti 63r1025 wrote:I'll fight for your right to have that feature added.

And to party

No, you've got to fight for your right to party. I'll fight to push for features