Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Taking us back to a tangent we ventured on page 1 (I split this thread from "Next time around" so the page 1 reference is in that thread)…

Simcik wrote:… If we do not get the rumored Trans Am Car Pack (Challenger T/A, Cuda AAR, SB Camaro and Mustang, etc.), …

Ex US Squid wrote:… SCCA in 1970 allowed larger displacement motors eligible to be de-stroked to the 5.0 litre/305 cube rules to allow the 400 firebirds and 340 mopars in. So everybody ran 305s. … And I have been screamin, bitchin and whining for Small Block Mopars ever since FM4 launched! I will be the happiest camper in the world if its true. It is a legit rumor right or are you just BSin us?

Simcik wrote:I think it was on here, but it's unconfirmed best I can tell from the thread (All 700 pages of it.)
http://www.forzacentral.com/forum/forza-motorsport-4/37015-forza-motorsport-4-car-track-list-%5Bfinal%5D-dlc-%5Bwip%5D-updated-january-31st.html

to acknowledge Simcik was not entirely wrong with his findings; there was a Trans-Am conversation on forzacentral.com. I became a member to dig deeper and found they were discussing the real life Trans-Am series on Independence Day and 5th July 2011 (circa page 26). Near as I can tell, in terms of downloadable content, they were discussing the Muscle Car pack which came out upon release. This user (by the same name on forzamotorsport.net) may have contributed to some confusion:

porsche 914/6 wrote:I really like '65-'73 trans-am. I'm personally very excited for the possibility that this muscle car pack could include a '69 boss 302 mustang, a '70 AAR 'cuda or a '70 challenger T/A. as much as I love the big block models we have in the game (the boss 429 mustang, the hemi 'cuda and the challenger 440-6 pack respectively), they're really no match for the small blocks through the corners.

So far I haven't found evidence discussing downloadable content being Trans-Am cars. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist as I'm open to the possibility it does exist, I just haven't found it. I suppose I could send admin.-user "BADNED" a private message question, though his [in]box is probably stuffed to the max.

Squid, getting pre-made small block cars would be incredible, though knowing Turn 10 they’d give us assorted Mopar 318, 340, and 360 cars and I’d still complain. Why? We’d still need a way to reduce Mopar into Trans-Am’s 5L requirement. There’s no way Turn 10 can get it right* with the game engine as it currently sits. They’d have to create 1970s Mopar cars with 273 cubic inch engines and have displacement customizations bump the car to 5.0L. From what I’ve found 273 wasn’t an option during the ‘70s.

*Yes, I am one tough cookie to please.

The game's tuning/customization engine would need to have the capability, though wouldn't it be sweet to do in Forza what the SCCA allowed in 1970 and de-stroke engines? The crew at Turn 10 would have their work cut out for them. They'd need to research block cylinder bores, crankshaft strokes and allow us the ability to pair many combinations under parent corporations

• FoMoCo: Saleen, Mercury, Shelby, Ford & Panoz
  
• GM: Pontiac, "Bertone Mantide," Olds., Buick, GMC, Hummer, "Spada Codatronca TS," Chevrolet, "Ultima GTR" & "Shelby Series 1"
  
• Chrysler Corp.: Plymouth, Dodge, Chrysler & Devon
  
• and the list goes on …

Plus the 1994 Miata was while Ford & Mazda were in bed with each other. Variants of that engine were in assorted other Ford platforms, including the Probe. It's company pairings like so, which would require lots of accurate research.

Didn't Forza have a Z/28 and an SS Camaro once upon a time? I can't remember now if it was 2 or 3. I just know I went to get my 302 Camaro and it wasn't there in this series and maybe the one before... Honestly I don't see why they don't include them. It can't be that hard to modify the SS that's already in there with new CG/mass and power band data. I don't think there were that many suspension differences and I'm not even sure the Forza engine is that detailed to begin with.

Forza had duplicate chassis separated by trim, and still does. Forza 2 had the 1969 Z/28 and SS, Forza 3 had the 1969 Z/28 and SS, and Forza 4 has the 1969 Z/28 and SS. In 3 & 4 the SS is a unicorn.

Ultimately I'd like to see Forza Motorsport ship with relatively few chassis and allow us to accurately build up varying trim levels for each car modeled. I'd also like to see Turn 10 eliminate duplicate chassis (5 Audi race touring cars? Seriously?) Include only one on the disc, make each variant a different paint scheme, and give us drop-down menu options in the car name. That's got to take less disc space than five separate vehicles.

Those who know me well can skip these posts.
http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/post/4707870.aspx
http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/post/4730924.aspx
http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/post/4768207.aspx

The point you bring up about the Audi race cars is similar to tge one i brought up about getting open wheeled cars into Forza.in tyeory they should all be the right? If its a Ford Falcon race car it doesnt matter if its #42 or #12...theyre all the same. Its unnecessary to have (like you said) 5 Audi DTM cars when one would do the job, then let the creative genius of the FM community come out, or get the liveries from the car (whether its an JGTC Supra, Holden Commodore V8 Supercar, or a Chevrolet stock car) and have T10 make unique liveries that are "T10 approved" which would be actually on the cars themselves.

I would be really surprised if the game isn't already coded that way Avanti. I doubt they have the entire car code over again for the similar cars. Turn 10 does it that way for numbers. Same as gt5... oh we have 1k cars... never-mind 100 of them are different versions of the R34.

Sorta05 wrote:I would be really surprised if the game isn't already coded that way Avanti. I doubt they have the entire car code over again for the similar cars. Turn 10 does it that way for numbers. Same as gt5... oh we have 1k cars... never-mind 100 of them are different versions of the R34.

Just bought GT5...I counted how many Nissan GT-R's there were...there were 5 different versions...1 was a concept, and one was a GT-R in car camo...

Yes Smoose but count every tiny under 2L economy euro or jap hatchback that has 5 or more versions of it where the only difference is the ground effects kit or maybe one came with 3 more HP. Fact is GT5 wasn't super arrogent in padding their numbers but it doesn't take long for you to realize this and also only 200 cars were the new updated HD graphics at launch whille 800 cars reused the old GT4/GT5-Concept graphics which was another lazy move considering how many years GT5 was in development. Also notice how GT5 offers for money a DLC option to add more colors to paint your car! LOL Forza has always included this for free. DLC is really expensive in GT5 also. And when you begin to paly the game you realize that underneath all the glitz and glamour is a game that seems a little gutted and missing the soul that a series like Forza has in spades. I will always give GT a shot but this version was a huge letdown to me.

Ex US Squid wrote:Yes Smoose but count every tiny under 2L economy euro or jap hatchback that has 5 or more versions of it where the only difference is the ground effects kit or maybe one came with 3 more HP. Fact is GT5 wasn't super arrogent in padding their numbers but it doesn't take long for you to realize this and also only 200 cars were the new updated HD graphics at launch whille 800 cars reused the old GT4/GT5-Concept graphics which was another lazy move considering how many years GT5 was in development. Also notice how GT5 offers for money a DLC option to add more colors to paint your car! LOL Forza has always included this for free. DLC is really expensive in GT5 also. And when you begin to paly the game you realize that underneath all the glitz and glamour is a game that seems a little gutted and missing the soul that a series like Forza has in spades. I will always give GT a shot but this version was a huge letdown to me.

Right. I'll pretty much agree with you 100% on that.

I've been playing GT5 now for I'm thinking about 8 hours total...I'm level 11, my B-spec driver(s) is at level 7, and I have a fair number of issues with the game in general...

First and foremost, is the graphics. Like you said, a lot of them are simply retreads of GT4 cars. The best example that I have seen was in some Lexus IS300 wagon that I bought. Not only does the paint have very little depth to it (I'm just under the assumption that a JDM spec Toyota Altezza would have nice paint if its sold as a Lexus here), but the biggest issue was the headlights. They looked like the stock car I'm driving...just a sticker. Not to mention the grainy shading on Daytona when I was driving the Toyota X-Runner on the oval. I haven't even touched the bland and boring looking Laguna Seca...I haven't gone much off of the A-spec B-spec plantation yet, but I'll get there eventually.

Then I have a big, no...Huge problem with the car purchasing system. Yep, the Used Car lot is neat...but I'm trying to find an older European sports car from between 1959 and 1970 or something like that...yeah...I'm sure I'll have great luck there. Now, that's not to say that I don't like the idea, but I'll get to that later.

Finally, like you pointed out Squid, the painting and customization is bogus. One paint chip means you get one time to paint it that color? I don't think so...looks like they'll all be sticking with the stock colors. I wouldn't mind having to pay 1,000 credits or something each time I wanted a car painted, that's fine because you need to pay a paint shop to do it...cool...but don't limit my options. Also, the lack of rim choices is appauling, as is the "tuning" system. Now I know Forza's purchasing system is probably a little too cheap, but come on...17,500 credits to supercharge my X-Runner? When they were new a factory TRD SC kit was like 6k...

I haven't actually "tuned" a car's suspension, but I'll get there.

One other thing I really dislike is the whole user interface. It takes me way to long to get from my cars, to whatever racing, or the shop, or whatever...to many menus. For example, I buy an exhaust for my Mini, then it asks if I want to install it. No, I want to look at it...of course I want it installed.


Now, what I do like, I really like.

I love the B-spec section. Love, Love, Love it to death. I always wished Forza would do something similar...mainly because I want to feel like Chip Ganassi. I like seeing my driver duke it out in "my" car. I don't know about you guys, but my Forza garage is huge. Almost too big honestly. There are probably a lot of cars that I've never driven, and some I'll never drive but once or twice. Why not have the calender option, but have multiple race options? Like, you have the option of running an R1 race at Sebring, an R3 DTM race at Nurburgring GP, a C-class Mustang vs. Camaro race, and an F class city car race. You have 2 drivers and yourself. So you throw your experienced driver at the R1 race, the new driver at the F class race, and as the owner you take off and run the DTM race in Germany. After all the running, you get to see how your driver's did, see if they wrecked the car, see what position they placed and maybe (huge maybe) see the replay. Or you do what they do on GT5 and as the "team owner/principal" you get to watch, make pit strategy calls, and communicate with the driver. Get to be like Chad Knaus or Dan Binks.

Second, as crazy as it sounds, I like the little nuance things. Like making sure the oil's changed, the car's washed. I just wish they would offer more in terms of refurbishing a "used car", like replacing bushings and brake fluid, all that stuff.

Finally, I like the used car section...I hate that the stock rotates and you can't access every car whenever. However, that being said, I would like Forza to have an option similar, but only to let you pick up cars that are already expensive at a discounted rate, maybe with modifications already done to some degree. Like picking up a used C5R for 250k credits versus 1 million for a new one, but the cheaper one has a lot of miles and requires a little refurbishing...and then have it take real time to repair. Say I pick up an older M3 race car and it needs a transmission overhaul. Well I can't snap my fingers and get it done, instead if I had to send it out to a shop to get it repaired and would literally have to wait 2-3 days for the repairs to get done. It would make me, as a prospective buyer, think twice before buying a used car, or weigh the costs and benefits.



Sorry for the long post, just some things ive been mulling over since I picked up GT5.

No I love the long ones when there is alot of points made that I can agree with or (more my style) argue against. I think the reason you dont see a used lot is because of the Auction House but I agree that in buying a car from the Auction House that it will come with a random assigned car history with things like mileage and wear and tear factored into your idea of it being important to maintain the car and buy replacement parts as needed. I want to say it was in Shift 1 that you could buy used upgrade parts but the penalty to buying the cheaper parts was that the lifespan of the parts was alot shorter and as the parts degraded, so did the performance they offer. So it would be cool if we bought engine parts that would offer a degredation scale where you would get less HP gained from the part as the percentage of wear goes up and that in the most worn part cases that you would actually see a negative affect over the stock part it replaces. Maybe have to replace parts more often than others and the parts would be on a race to race, monthly and season long basis depending on the real life parts wear factor. Like make tires cheaper but race tires need to be replaced each race and say street tires last all season. An exhaust system wears out seasonally and say the Chassis only needs a overhaul to replace the bushings and crummy linkages that took alot of abuse throughout the season. I think also that you could tie all of this directly into an Affinity system so as a Dodge factory driver I would get parts on the house but say I want to go balls out on a TVR well thats gonna cost me but if I were to begin to win with that car that the discounts begin to mount up as TVR begins to see my loyalty to them is more apparent... Also I think that from 25 on up your Affinity should shoot over a decent car from that manufacturer and that would attempt to be one that you do not already own unless you already own all the cars from said manufacturer.

That would be a very neat system. I like the idea of having a definitive lifetime on parts...like you said, slicks might last one race, but street tires would last a lot longer. Buying a used coil-over and damper package will have a reduced lifetime, maybe the part was barely used, or maybe one of the dampers is completely shot...you never know until you buy it. Maybe have that as an optional mode, like "hardcore" mode on Fallout: New Vegas that required the player to get rest, food, and water or suffer the consequences including death.


I also like the idea of special cars at level 25 affinity. Some unicorn car that would reward you for being a dedicated driver, as well as the idea of discounted parts. I loved that after level 4 affinity parts were 100% off, but it almost felt like cheating to grab a car like a "cheap" Ferrari, do 5-6 races with it with almost or no assists and with very little effort there was 100% parts reduced.

Ex US Squid wrote:Yes Smoose but count every tiny under 2L economy euro or jap hatchback that has 5 or more versions of it where the only difference is the ground effects kit or maybe one came with 3 more HP. Fact is GT5 wasn't super arrogent in padding their numbers but it doesn't take long for you to realize this and also only 200 cars were the new updated HD graphics at launch whille 800 cars reused the old GT4/GT5-Concept graphics which was another lazy move considering how many years GT5 was in development. Also notice how GT5 offers for money a DLC option to add more colors to paint your car! LOL Forza has always included this for free. DLC is really expensive in GT5 also. And when you begin to paly the game you realize that underneath all the glitz and glamour is a game that seems a little gutted and missing the soul that a series like Forza has in spades. I will always give GT a shot but this version was a huge letdown to me.

Well said... that's what I was implying, however sarcasm doesn't translate well on the interwebs.

As for having to repair and wash my virtual car I"ll pass. That already takes up more of my time then I would like in real life thanks. I would rather spend my time tuning, test driving and racing.

What I do think is a good idea is damage or wear that carries over on a series race. I think Forza used to do the series type races and I know GT does. So you have a series of 5 races... if you over rev the motor and do damage or any kind of wear or damage that will carry through out the rest of the series. Or maybe have some amount of damage that you can choose what to repair after each race but only so much can be done.

Sorta05 wrote:I would be really surprised if the game isn't already coded that way Avanti. I doubt they have the entire car code over again for the similar cars. …

I hope you're right. We would have to get hold of one of those hackers pulling Forza models off the game C.D. (placing them in other computer games) to know what data's physically on the disc.

Smus wrote:… For example, I buy an exhaust for my Mini, then it asks if I want to install it. No, I want to wrap my cock in a terrycloth towel, pretend I'm a human pipe cleaner, and clean out the pipe's carbon deposits...of course I want it installed.

Fixed it for you

Smus wrote:… I love the B-spec section. Love, Love, Love it to death. I always wished Forza would do something similar …

Forza Motorsport (as in the first one) had a drivatar feature. This was an artificial intelligence character who would learn from you. You would drive around various courses with your drivatar as a passenger. It would learn your driving style based on ratings of how you negotiated a section of track. I quite liked the feature. You could create more than one character and you could name them. I had "R. Fellows" "J. O'Connell" "T. Sato" (then in F1) and a couple others. I believe the drivatar feature disappeared because there were methods of exploiting it. Once again, dishonest jackasses ruining it for everyone else.

Ex US Squid wrote:… I want to say it was in Shift 1 that you could buy used upgrade parts but the penalty to buying the cheaper parts was that the lifespan of the parts was alot shorter and as the parts degraded, so did the performance they offer. So it would be cool if we bought engine parts that would offer a degredation scale where you would get less HP gained from the part as the percentage of wear goes up and that in the most worn part cases that you would actually see a negative affect over the stock part it replaces. Maybe have to replace parts more often than others and the parts would be on a race to race, monthly and season long basis depending on the real life parts wear factor. Like make tires cheaper but race tires need to be replaced each race and say street tires last all season. An exhaust system wears out seasonally and say the Chassis only needs a overhaul to replace the bushings and crummy linkages that took alot of abuse throughout the season. …

Woohoo! Part degradation? Yes please. The game already tracks chassis mileage. I wonder if it would be too difficult for the game to add this type of computation:
There are 35.4 miles on the car now and you installed _____ part(s). I expect _____ part(s) to last 1500 miles. I'll start a wear counter at 100% so upon reaching 1534.4 miles this part will be 1%. Engine example- Every time you whap the rev. limiter, the degradation slightly increases its rate of wear.

Hey look not all of us can last forever so theres no need to rub it in my face but also I dont remember stating my shortcomings.

I remember the drivitar feature...I had totally forgotten about that...and the tracks!! Oh man, Blue Mountian raceway?!? I hated that track...damn it was technical.

Everytime you whap the limiter? I thought that is what it was for... to prevent aholes like me from throwing rods through the block... But that would be another cool idea that works with your percentage idea, So on many programmers you have the ability to move the rev limit up or down usually 400 to 500 rpms.. What if this would help elongate or shorten the lifespan. Say you have one motor where you raised the redline from 6500 to 6800 RPMs and another where you lowered it from 6500 to 6200 RPMs. I would think that the motor that only revs to 6200 RPMs would have a much longer durability factor than the motor that is screaming up to 6800

Altering the limiter would be totally rad, dude! Plus it would go hand-in-hand with engine building and in equalizing a field in a series. YIPPEE!

Yes, good point Squid. All else being equal, the 6200 RPM engine should last longer than the 6800 RPM engine. Though with an adjustable rev. limiter, maybe you're willing to sacrifice a bit of engine life for a little more room in the rev. range. Or if we could have the qualifying feature make a return, perhaps in qualifying trim one sets their limiter to 7200 RPM to go all out but during the race one drops the limiter to 6700 RPM.

Not quite so technical, but one aspect that i liked from earlier forza games was the level requirements to purchase certain cars. So you couldnt be a super low level, get a friend to send an H1 and wreak havoc on online games. I also liked the choice between what area you started in.

I think it could be really useful with the implementation of the affinity system. If you start in Asia, then affinity for Toyota and Honda are easier to get, whereas Ford and BMW would take longer based on region and overall level. However if there was a cross regional affinity bonus that would be really cool. Drive for Ford Europe, the Ford NA would already know you so bonuses carry over. Race a Lexus in the US, Toyota affinity carrys to JDM cars.

I would think your logic on the Affinity pertaining to the world locations would be the opposite though. Think about it... Say you are running a Ford in Japan. That would garner you more attention from that manufacturer because it would stand out. Where as if in the same Asian region you run a Yota or Nissan will be rather watered down amongst the millions of other Asians running Asian cars in that series or event wouldnt garner you the same attention. So by running said Ford in the Asian Cup you in turn will be rewarded by Ford for whooping the Asians butts on their home turf and inturn making Ford a more dominant and viable threat over there. Just a thought... Feel free to clown me on how stupid it sounds in the spaces provided below...

My thought was that as a "native" to one region would provide more opportunities with local manufacturers. Driving a Ford in Japan as an American isnt as suprising, but a Japanese driver might draw more skepticisim from Ford on on dedication to the brand

Smus wrote:My thought was that as a "native" to one region would provide more opportunities with local manufacturers. Driving a Ford in Japan as an American isnt as suprising, but a Japanese driver might draw more skepticisim from Ford on on dedication to the brand

Makes sense to me. However the reality is that in Japan people don't buy foreign cars. If you did it in China they would just copy your car and tell you to leave. So I'm afraid it would be all for not in those places. On the other hand Ford made a huge impression on Europe with the GT40, Rally car's, and touring cars (just watch TG).

So what I think turn needs to do in the next title deals more with the menu system then anything else. I know this is supposed to be a simulation but come on... why can't I have my tunes show up in the garage as a car? For example: I have several tunes for my trans am across different class's. Why not show them all as an option to pick from in the garage? Why do I have to select the car, then select a tune yadda yadda yadda.... It's not as bad as GT5 I'm sure, but still this can be done better. They could also add a sub menu for a car within a class and allow you to pick from multiple setups (short track long track, grip or speed etc). This also comes into play for online use. Maybe I'm missing some slick feature but I sometimes think; man sure would be nice if I could use this car right now but it's got the wrong tune/setup on it so I can't even select it much less use it.

I think online racing you can go to "load tune" or something like that...but even then you have to find the car you've selected and then pick the tune.

Ex US Squid wrote:No I love the long ones when there is alot of points made that I can agree with or (more my style) argue against. I think the reason you dont see a used lot is because of the Auction House but I agree that in buying a car from the Auction House that it will come with a random assigned car history with things like mileage and wear and tear factored into your idea of it being important to maintain the car and buy replacement parts as needed. I want to say it was in Shift 1 that you could buy used upgrade parts but the penalty to buying the cheaper parts was that the lifespan of the parts was alot shorter and as the parts degraded, so did the performance they offer. So it would be cool if we bought engine parts that would offer a degredation scale where you would get less HP gained from the part as the percentage of wear goes up and that in the most worn part cases that you would actually see a negative affect over the stock part it replaces. Maybe have to replace parts more often than others and the parts would be on a race to race, monthly and season long basis depending on the real life parts wear factor. Like make tires cheaper but race tires need to be replaced each race and say street tires last all season. An exhaust system wears out seasonally and say the Chassis only needs a overhaul to replace the bushings and crummy linkages that took alot of abuse throughout the season. I think also that you could tie all of this directly into an Affinity system so as a Dodge factory driver I would get parts on the house but say I want to go balls out on a TVR well thats gonna cost me but if I were to begin to win with that car that the discounts begin to mount up as TVR begins to see my loyalty to them is more apparent... Also I think that from 25 on up your Affinity should shoot over a decent car from that manufacturer and that would attempt to be one that you do not already own unless you already own all the cars from said manufacturer.

Holycraptakeabreathhardtoreadindentparagraphsughmakeitstopsoicanreadit!

Whew...

Avanti 63r1025 wrote:Altering the limiter would be totally rad, dude! Plus it would go hand-in-hand with engine building and in equalizing a field in a series. YIPPEE!

Yes, good point Squid. All else being equal, the 6200 RPM engine should last longer than the 6800 RPM engine. Though with an adjustable rev. limiter, maybe you're willing to sacrifice a bit of engine life for a little more room in the rev. range. Or if we could have the qualifying feature make a return, perhaps in qualifying trim one sets their limiter to 7200 RPM to go all out but during the race one drops the limiter to 6700 RPM.

I would like to see more realistic internal and mechanical damage. If I miss a shift, I don't just want it to slow me down a little, lock out a gear! Break some teeth, ya know?

Make us pay to do repairs. All repairs. Say we trash an engine and tranny in a race, run it hot and ruin the heads, and don't change the oil out, so when we get into the next race without doing anything it overheats, smokes, and starts to sieze. Also, have power-adders reproduce their realworld side effects like lower longevity and higher wear.

And finally, let's be able to blow an engine or tranny. Like if you put the Viper's V10 in front a stock A833 4-speed in a Dart and soup it up even further, without upgrading the tranny, you won't be able to set hot lap records, cause you'll keep sending clutch disks flying everywhere and melting.

Amen everyone. The closer to real life we can bring Forza Motorsport, the better. Sim, you wanna do what to a tranny!?

Turn 10 does have a problem on their hands with the idea of allowing more complexity. How do they make the game fun and enjoyable for people who don't understand that clutch discs may explode and that connecting rods sometimes get the urge to open the block and receive fresh air?. This is one reason why I'd like the ability to build engines and sell them on our storefront. That way racers who don't know how to set up an engine can buy. Are there going to be bad apples who purposely set up a combination that'll blow, and charge boo-coo bucks for it? Absolutely. I would hope the Forza Motorsport community could weed out those jackwagons though.