NASCAR Discussion

It IS a fumble.  This isn't news though.  Dodge wasn't offering enough support and was resistant to working with teams that didn't build every facet of the car in-house.  Truth is, many teams buy some components from others and Dodge wanted a team to do everything (like Hendrick, Roush, etc...), but by the time Penske was out, there was no one left that could afford to do it that way.

Sim I have told you what Tux said on several occasions.  Its very well documented at this point that Dodge was unreasonable with Penske and forced the Captains hand.   Also RCR has to much tradition with Chevy along with a shit ton of Chevy dealerships.  You cant just assume Richard will jump ship to your make just like that.   RCR is holding out JUST LIKE Petty did with Ford last year.  If you make it seem like youre shopping it will cause your desired make to come through with a few more perks/dollars.   RCR is not a possibility.   Ganassi is about the only team within the next 2 years I could see making the switch but the problem with that is that Chip is deeply teamed up with Earnhardt who shares love of Chevrolet with RCR as well as the Earnhardt/Childress engine shop.   So now there is a three way affair that makes it even harder for any of the teams to switch.  Best bet now is grass roots through Furniture Row especially if Kurt leaves for Stewart Haas Racing to join Tony, Kevin, and Danica to be part of Team Zero Fucks Given Racing haha.  

But if Dodge acquired Furniture Row and maybe Casey Mears team then that would be a solid start to prove that Dodge is willing to put in the R&D and support to provide teams a solid shot at Top 10s or better week in and out.

Yeah Haas! Got a good driver, AND pissed off that bloated windbag Stewart... I hope when Kurt wins next year, he thanks ONLY Haas, and the rest of the sponsors. That'd be so cool.....

Rem....

lol I guess kind of troll:twisted: 

It actually might very well kind of suck, SHR was already stretched too thin to give Danica a good pit crew, don't know how a 4th team will work out. But, anything that pisses off Stewart is something that makes me smile a bit more 

Rem SHR is basically a satellite operation of Hendrick using Hendrick motors and R&D.   The money is there especially with the expressed love that part owner(money bags) Gene Haas has for Kurt Busch.  So he is willing to put his own money into the 4th team.   Kevin Harvick wont have any issues with sponsorship either so fiscally SHR will be good to go and with amazing equipment.  

Kurt was part of a one car satellite team this year at Furniture Row that was less funded than SHR with RCR equipment that just isnt as good as Hendrick.  So if he has been a Chase threat this year I feel he can be a threat next year.

I'm hoping he's in it this year and next. From what I've seen this year, Kurt didn't exactly have the best pit crew. Danica had the same problem though. I think there were a few races that she could have done much better, if it weren't for having lost track position in the pits. Which of course, then led to her being further back, and with less experience that can easily cause mistakes during a pileup that she could potentially have otherwise been in front of. Just my take.

There's one constant though. If it makes Stewart unhappy, it makes me happy.

Remaggib wrote:...Which of course, then led to her being further back, and with less experience that can easily cause mistakes during a pileup that she could potentially have otherwise been in front of. Just my take.

I totally agree but that can be said for any and ALL drivers cant it haha.   How many times you see Jimmie, Kevin, Matt or Brad get cycled back for mistakes on pit road by the driver or crew that cause the car to go to the back only to be caught up in someone elses B.S.   Thems the stakes and thems the brakes...... Get it..... Ha instead of breaks..... ya know?   Ya who am I kidding, you get it 

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2013/09/09/nascar-sprint-cup-richmond-penalties-mwr-chase.html

NASCAR put the hammer down!  At first I couldn't quite justify the 56 team being penalized but the more I think about it, the more I understand why NASCAR ruled the way they did.  If multi-car teams use their advantage to DIRECTLY affect the outcome of a "bubble" race, then the potential penalties will be significant.  I'm sure teams will still try things, but MWR did it pretty much blatantly.  I mean, listen to the radio chatter.  They had motive and were very suspicious about talk and actions.

Ah ha!
I read this, http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/the-nascar-chase-to-the-sprint-cup-is-broken-and-im-bi-1275999739
and then I followed a comment here, http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/09/sports/autoracing/nascar-investigating-race-for-possible-manipulation.html?_r=0
and tied it together with your link where this also popped up, http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9656651

IMO, they've opened Pandora's box. Now they must equally penalize ALL teamwork on the track, otherwise their will be calls of even more hypocracy in the sport.

Let's look at Richmond for just a few more examples (Excluding the MWR stuff, which has already been dealt with.):

Jimmie Johnson went up the track and hit the wall, bringing out the caution and allowing Jeff Gordon to stay only one lap down. Now, this could be purely coincidental, as it most likely is - however, will NASCAR look at telemetry to determine whether or not it was coindicental or intentional? After all, the caution directly influenced the outcome of the race for a teammate, so the MWR precedent would dictate that they must investigate. Yet they haven't even mentioned it. Why is that? Is it becuase it's Hendrick's car? Is it because NASCAR only stands up and polices something when it's politically expedient for them to do so? Hypocracy...

Carl Edwards clearly beat Menard (the leader) to the Start/Finish line on the final restart, yet nothing was said. It appeared that Menard spun his tires, but Carl made NO attempt to slow down and he had no way of knowing that Menards tires were spinning at the time. A similar occurance happened earlier in the year to Jimmie Johnson. Johnson was penalized. Carl was not. Why? Hypocracy...

It appears with NASCAR that the rules only apply when they want them too. Even the black and white rules aren't black and white anymore. I get gray areas, but that is not what I'm talking about.

If we don't want "team orders," do away with teams. Otherwise we just have a facade up saying, "it's okay as long as you don't get caught," and us fans aren't that stupid to think that it won't go on. Letting a teammate get past easily, blocking a competitor from another team, choosing a pit stall in front of a competitor, phantom debris reports on the radio to give a teammate a needed caution; all of this is an example of "team orders" and we see it every week. It has not been an issue until now, when it became unpopular with the masses for some reason... (Probably 'cause so many people are pissed that Gordon isn't in the Chase. God, that's all people have talked about today is that JLo and/or Newman should be replaced with Gordon, due to the way he was affected by the MWR stuff.)

IMO, this is just another hyprocritical decision by NASCAR to not necessarily do what's right, but do what's popular or politically expedient. I feel all they have done now is given more credibility to the "black helicopter" crowd that thinks (insert team name here) manipulate the system and skirt the rules, because we all know NASCAR is not going to dig this deep into every coincidental thing that happens (See above, for instance.) on the track.

Hell, I don't care about team orders, as long as it is understood that the street goes both ways. With about 100 laps to go, Brad was in second, and Joey was in 20-something. At the time, Joey was in 10th in the points standings, and Brad was 11th, only 7 points back. Gordon was behind that by a few more in 12th. Had the race continued in the order, I was thinking JLo should hit the brakes coming out of turn 4 and drop 7 or 8 positions, swapping his and Brad's places, giving both Penske cars a Chase berth, even without Brad winning. That's team orders, and it's not braking the rules. No one says you can't slow down, pit, etc. I'm sure others were doing the same kind of thinking as me to see how they could get their driver in the Chase. Later, as it was apparent that BK wasn't going to make it, I started thinking about how nice it would be for JLo to have a competent driver in a fast car running blocker for him during the Chase. Brad could mix it up with the other contenders, racing them hard and not giving an inch, just like he did last year, all to the benefit of Joey, who could run ahead and build up a nice cushion. That's "team orders," and I have no problem with it. Most people don't, so long as it's their driver who's benefiting. Like I said, it's so hypocritical...

Okay, the soap box is tired of me jumping up and down on it, so I'll leave it for someone else to use for a while.

Simcik wrote:IMO, they've opened Pandora's box. Now they must equally penalize ALL teamwork on the track, otherwise their will be calls of even more hypocracy in the sport.

Let's look at Richmond for just a few more examples (Excluding the MWR stuff, which has already been dealt with.):

Jimmie Johnson went up the track and hit the wall, bringing out the caution and allowing Jeff Gordon to stay only one lap down. Now, this could be purely coincidental, as it most likely is - however, will NASCAR look at telemetry to determine whether or not it was coindicental or intentional? After all, the caution directly influenced the outcome of the race for a teammate, so the MWR precedent would dictate that they must investigate. Yet they haven't even mentioned it. Why is that? Is it becuase it's Hendrick's car? Is it because NASCAR only stands up and polices something when it's politically expedient for them to do so? Hypocracy...

Carl Edwards clearly beat Menard (the leader) to the Start/Finish line on the final restart, yet nothing was said. It appeared that Menard spun his tires, but Carl made NO attempt to slow down and he had no way of knowing that Menards tires were spinning at the time. A similar occurance happened earlier in the year to Jimmie Johnson. Johnson was penalized. Carl was not. Why? Hypocracy...

It appears with NASCAR that the rules only apply when they want them too. Even the black and white rules aren't black and white anymore. I get gray areas, but that is not what I'm talking about.

If we don't want "team orders," do away with teams. Otherwise we just have a facade up saying, "it's okay as long as you don't get caught," and us fans aren't that stupid to think that it won't go on. Letting a teammate get past easily, blocking a competitor from another team, choosing a pit stall in front of a competitor, phantom debris reports on the radio to give a teammate a needed caution; all of this is an example of "team orders" and we see it every week. It has not been an issue until now, when it became unpopular with the masses for some reason... (Probably 'cause so many people are pissed that Gordon isn't in the Chase. God, that's all people have talked about today is that JLo and/or Newman should be replaced with Gordon, due to the way he was affected by the MWR stuff.)

IMO, this is just another hyprocritical decision by NASCAR to not necessarily do what's right, but do what's popular or politically expedient. I feel all they have done now is given more credibility to the "black helicopter" crowd that thinks (insert team name here) manipulate the system and skirt the rules, because we all know NASCAR is not going to dig this deep into every coincidental thing that happens (See above, for instance.) on the track.

Hell, I don't care about team orders, as long as it is understood that the street goes both ways. With about 100 laps to go, Brad was in second, and Joey was in 20-something. At the time, Joey was in 10th in the points standings, and Brad was 11th, only 7 points back. Gordon was behind that by a few more in 12th. Had the race continued in the order, I was thinking JLo should hit the brakes coming out of turn 4 and drop 7 or 8 positions, swapping his and Brad's places, giving both Penske cars a Chase berth, even without Brad winning. That's team orders, and it's not braking the rules. No one says you can't slow down, pit, etc. I'm sure others were doing the same kind of thinking as me to see how they could get their driver in the Chase. Later, as it was apparent that BK wasn't going to make it, I started thinking about how nice it would be for JLo to have a competent driver in a fast car running blocker for him during the Chase. Brad could mix it up with the other contenders, racing them hard and not giving an inch, just like he did last year, all to the benefit of Joey, who could run ahead and build up a nice cushion. That's "team orders," and I have no problem with it. Most people don't, so long as it's their driver who's benefiting. Like I said, it's so hypocritical...

Okay, the soap box is tired of me jumping up and down on it, so I'll leave it for someone else to use for a while.

You're missing much here Sim.  Understand why the penalty was issued.  MWR's body of work was called into question because it could be proven that the 55 team manipulated the finishing order and the 15 team was highly suspicious and could be all but proven.  You bring up Jimmie Johnson hitting a wall to help a teammate stay only one lap down?  Really?  Look at when MWR shenannigan's started and how they affected the race.  NASCAR made the ruling to uphold the integrity of the sport in this instance because the actions were glaring and provable.  Bowyer just proved his guilt last night according to his conversation with Newman on the phone.  All "team orders" aren't as calculated as MWR's were.

You say the street should go both ways.   Believe it!  That's exactly why NASCAR made the ruling.  They made an example out of a team that was proven guilty and affected the Chase.  So basically they're saying, "if you put us(NASCAR) into a box in which your guilt is so obvious, we will rule for the good of the sport."  All else is speculation.  Like everything else you bring up.  Dude, you're on a "black helicopter."

And your claims about what Penske could have done is silly.  You think JLo should have dropped 7 or 8 positions to help Brad and that it wouldn't break rules?  Except it WOULD break rules.  It's called minimum speed.  Not only that, Logano was fighting for a Chase berth as well.  Too many variables to have it fall the way you thought.  The scenario doesn't work.  MWR's does.  Their math was certain and their actions were obvious.

I, like you, really hope NASCAR sticks to their guns because I believe MWR's guilt is glaring and this move needed to be done.  All sore Gordon fans just need to recognize that the penalties just so happen to have helped Newman due to the points.  NASCAR didn't just swap drivers, they penalized one team.  And all sore Brad fans need to own the fact that their boy is a cheater, was caught cheating, and has been a non-factor since the penalites. (I don't truly believe that last sentence, but it's an interesting thought isn't it?)

Please remove your JJ blinders and re-read that. It wasn't a shot a Jimmie, it was merely an example. While I feel there was no mischief involved, and it was purely coincidental, we cannot know that for certain unless we dig into it just like we did the MWR stuff. Where's the audio for JJ leading up to the crash? Where's the review of his telemtry. Did anyone actually see if his tire was cut before he hit the wall? All I am saying is that the timing is highly coincidental, given the benefit to Gordon. Will NASCAR review that with the same furor it did MWR? No - they won't - and that's a shame, because it makes them look very bad to a lot of people who happen to not be Hendrick fans. In fact, looking into it and proving that it was purely coincidence would probably do a lot of good to quell the Hendrick conspriacy theorists.

Secondly, at a point in the race, Brad was 11th in Championship points, and Joey was 10th, with 7 points in between. Brad was running second. If the race had ended then, Joey was in, Brad was out. If the race were to have ended that lap, as Joey would have been able to complete nearly an entire lap of the track before crossing the finish line, Brad could have crossed in second, and Joey could have allowed 7 or 8 cars to pass (while maintaining minimum speed), and allowed Brad to move up to the 10th spot, while dropping himself to the 11th spot, securing the first Wildcard. Both cars would have made the Chase had that happened. It didn't, but it would have worked if the rest of the race shook out that way. Furthermore, I know I wasn't the only fan working the calculator all night trying to figure out who needed to pass who, how many points were needed, etc. to get their driver in the Chase, so don't assume I'm on my own here...

Finally, all this brings up is more questions. So, NASCAR doesn't like "team rules" at Richmond. Got it. Is it okay for a Car to pull out of the draft during the Daytona 500 to slow down the car of a rival, while allowing his teammate to take the lead? That's "team orders," that's very blatant, and that affects the Chase in the end. Richmond only matters to the drivers who weren't able to lock up spot earlier. All the races affect the Chase or the Championship in one way or another, so why is Richmond so special??? And are all "team orders" bad, or just the ones that are unpopular with the masses???

Sim Jimmie Fucked me on kicking all your asses in points but that was a racing accident.  Text book.... A hurt car that was repaired to get the 48 team extra owners championship points.  His car was garbage ALL weekend.  Jimmie didnt practice or qualify the car cause he was having a kid late Friday night/early Sat morning.   His head was NEVER in it at Richmond.   And the only way Nascar could fairly punish MWR for a team order like that was to make sure everyone in the garage understands that you take your own teams chances of making the chase and put it in great jeopardy.   

Something had to be done with the evidence that was obviously there.   The only other option would be to take Clint out of the Chase for attempting to help his team or rig the chase field depending on how you want to look at it.  But I applaud the effort.   One thing I always hated about F1 was it seemed there was the A driver on the team that was going for the championship and the B driver that was just there to take team orders to let the A driver by and then defend any other pursuers of the A driver to pad the points.   That always seemed a bit dirty or dishonest to me.   The MWR fiasco seems very very close to crossing into that area.   

Surely we can say as time passes that in hindsight there was a better option but in the time constraints given and on what evidence we have I think Nascar made a BOLD decision but a necessary one.  Had they done nothing then I feel the F1 team orders mentality would become popular and devastate the sports purity that we all love.  

Man I had Clint, Kurt, and Jeff Burton in the top 5 and Ricky Jr was a top 15 when Jimmie dropped a bunker buster on all of it!   I swear on my truck that I was mid sentence saying "Hope nobody brings out a cau..... JIMMIE YOU FUCKED ME!!!!"    LOL what a jerk.   Once again I had the class of the field and then racing happened.

Simcik wrote:Please remove your JJ blinders and re-read that. It wasn't a shot a Jimmie, it was merely an example. While I feel there was no mischief involved, and it was purely coincidental, we cannot know that for certain unless we dig into it just like we did the MWR stuff. Where's the audio for JJ leading up to the crash? Where's the review of his telemtry. Did anyone actually see if his tire was cut before he hit the wall? All I am saying is that the timing is highly coincidental, given the benefit to Gordon. Will NASCAR review that with the same furor it did MWR? No - they won't - and that's a shame, because it makes them look very bad to a lot of people who happen to not be Hendrick fans. In fact, looking into it and proving that it was purely coincidence would probably do a lot of good to quell the Hendrick conspriacy theorists.

Secondly, at a point in the race, Brad was 11th in Championship points, and Joey was 10th, with 7 points in between. Brad was running second. If the race had ended then, Joey was in, Brad was out. If the race were to have ended that lap, as Joey would have been able to complete nearly an entire lap of the track before crossing the finish line, Brad could have crossed in second, and Joey could have allowed 7 or 8 cars to pass (while maintaining minimum speed), and allowed Brad to move up to the 10th spot, while dropping himself to the 11th spot, securing the first Wildcard. Both cars would have made the Chase had that happened. It didn't, but it would have worked if the rest of the race shook out that way. Furthermore, I know I wasn't the only fan working the calculator all night trying to figure out who needed to pass who, how many points were needed, etc. to get their driver in the Chase, so don't assume I'm on my own here...

Finally, all this brings up is more questions. So, NASCAR doesn't like "team rules" at Richmond. Got it. Is it okay for a Car to pull out of the draft during the Daytona 500 to slow down the car of a rival, while allowing his teammate to take the lead? That's "team orders," that's very blatant, and that affects the Chase in the end. Richmond only matters to the drivers who weren't able to lock up spot earlier. All the races affect the Chase or the Championship in one way or another, so why is Richmond so special??? And are all "team orders" bad, or just the ones that are unpopular with the masses???

LMFAO!!!!!!  Biggest fanboy I've met just told me to take the blinders off.............still laughing. 

No shit there's team orders and strategy.  But, you're really trying to compare things like draft strategy to intentionaly wrecking and parking?  And YOU figure out why it happens at Richmond.  It's simple, it's one race where, like you said, you break out the calculators and figure out how to change the Chase.  MWR did it with about 10 laps to go.  Yeah, Sim, I'M blind.  Go back and reread all of your dumbass conspiracy theories in the 22 pages of this discussion.  It's called racing, but you try to "read between the lines" of everything that doesn't go your way, or goes the way of teams like Hendrick.  You sound like every other butthurt fan I've talked to or read.  Enjoy the sport and quit your bitching.  Or don't.  Like I said, can't talk to you about NASCAR, you're wearing a tinfoil hat.

Please go back and look at what I said, I'm not taking a shot at JJ. I think Squid nailed it. He had a shit car, and he would have much rather been at home with his new daughter. That being said, it is still a DOUBLE STANDARD. Clint's timing was suspicious, so NASCAR looked into it. JJ timing was suspicious - yet no one looked into it. That's what I have a problem with. I'm not a MWR fan, just pointing out the inconsistencies.

And for the record, I'm not sure why being a fan of Brad (a non-factor in this issue) makes my points invalid. I'm trying to look at it objectively.

The reason I am against this is because it just makes the gray area that much bigger, and open NASCAR up for more criticism in the future. Go back to my example. Pit strategy, drafting, etc., that's all "team orders," done to hurt one and benefit another. So what makes that okay? So you can draft with your teammate, and make him faster, but you can't slow yourself down??? Can teammate's not block other drivers? I'm sure we'll see a whole lot of that in the next 10 weeks. So, is that going to be penalized??? That's what I'm saying stinks about the whole deal here. They dropped the hammer on MWR, and next week, when we see a whole bunch more "strategy" *cough*team orders*cough* on the race track, NASCAR will be doing nothing about it.

And for the record, I am not even close to the helicopter - let alone in it. That being said, I'm not naive either. There sure are a lot of "coincidences" in this sport. I'm okay with that, as long as the play is called both ways...

Simcik wrote:Please go back and look at what I said, I'm not taking a shot at JJ. I think Squid nailed it. He had a shit car, and he would have much rather been at home with his new daughter. That being said, it is still a DOUBLE STANDARD. Clint's timing was suspicious, so NASCAR looked into it. JJ timing was suspicious - yet no one looked into it. That's what I have a problem with. I'm not a MWR fan, just pointing out the inconsistencies.

And for the record, I'm not sure why being a fan of Brad (a non-factor in this issue) makes my points invalid. I'm trying to look at it objectively.

The reason I am against this is because it just makes the gray area that much bigger, and open NASCAR up for more criticism in the future. Go back to my example. Pit strategy, drafting, etc., that's all "team orders," done to hurt one and benefit another. So what makes that okay? So you can draft with your teammate, and make him faster, but you can't slow yourself down??? Can teammate's not block other drivers? I'm sure we'll see a whole lot of that in the next 10 weeks. So, is that going to be penalized??? That's what I'm saying stinks about the whole deal here. They dropped the hammer on MWR, and next week, when we see a whole bunch more "strategy" *cough*team orders*cough* on the race track, NASCAR will be doing nothing about it.

And for the record, I am not even close to the helicopter - let alone in it. That being said, I'm not naive either. There sure are a lot of "coincidences" in this sport. I'm okay with that, as long as the play is called both ways...

Sim, I can read.  I've read all of your posts in this forum numerous times.  Your body of work is well established.  Go back and read my posts regarding this.  Here's what you're missing: MWR was not penalized for the 15's suspicious spin.  They were penalized for the 15's suspicious spin and radio chatter(later proved correct if Newman's tesimony is true), AND the 55's proven, unnecessary pit stop with vocalized radio chatter that shows intent to directly change the finishing order.  MWR's approach was multi-faceted and their actions were non-racing occurrences.  You throw out the JJ incident as an inconsistency.  Two TOTALLY different situations.  You can't compare unlike things and then state it's inconsistent.  JJ was alone, acted alone, had known mechanical issues, had no suspicious radio chatter, and you argue that keeping him only one lap down is suspicious.  Again, very different.

You continue to try to compare racing strategy with field manipulation.  It's one thing if you can block, or make it hard for your competitors, it's a whole different thing if you affect many by making non-racing moves.  It takes away from the very nature of the product we watch.  Drafting, blocking, bump-drafting, contact, etc. are all normal racing occurrences.

NASCAR's ruling is unprecedented and now will be considered from this point forward.  Any team using an inherent advantage in a non-racing manner should heed their warning.  We don't have to agree with their call, but don't sit there and act like you haven't been crying "foul" since you first jumped into NASCAR discussion. 

And take a joke, my Brad comment was an example of the bullshit JJ fans face all the time.  I told you I don't actually believe that, but it's annoying to hear it isn't it?

You never made a Brad joke???


I guess I just like my black & white to be a little less gray...

Last sentence, three posts back.  You responded by calling Brad a non-factor I'm assuming in response to my comment.  I wasn't being serious.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:9658424

Ricky Craven has been growing on me for quite some time now, this just totally justifies it.  Check out his interview wtih Clint.

You tell me if he's guilty.  Now remember, he said he thought he had a tire going down on Saturday night.  No mention on Tuesday afternoon.

I totally missed that... Anyway, I was responding to the fanboy comment. For the record, I am very, very confused why Brad took tires, especially 4, on the last caution. He had nothing to lose, and only a win helped. I would have risked it on slightly older tires and got the track position back.

Also, I think the biggest issue this year for Penske was engines. Joey blew one, Brad blew 2. No failures last year. Of course, now they are trying to be the best Ford team with another Ford team's engines, so...

Was listening to NASCAR Radio on the way home - seems I'm not the only one who thinks this is trumped up.

Either you can help your teammates, or you can't. Who gives a rat's ass if it's obvious? If Vickers pits, that's not a penalty. If he drive's too slow,worst case, he gets a black flag, and is forced to pit. Clint could have pitted, then not an issue. The only thing that they could have gotten him for is intentionally bringing out the Caution flag, and they can't PROVE that he spun intentionally (they said so themselves). The only way the penalty could be issued was to file it under the "Actions Detrimental to NASCAR" BSCYAGFY heading. It's a catch-all. It's not legitimate. The ONLY reason NASCAR acted was because of the fan's bitching. They don't care about the rules. They don't care about team orders. If they did, there would be a black & white "every man for himself" rule, and you wouldn't have multi-million dollar teams with 4 cars.

Hell, they still allow and condone Start and Parkers for goodness sake. That's field manipulation. They allow teams to pick their pit stalls - that's manipulation. They allow teams to draft together - another manipulation. No one bats an eye if a team mate a lap down moves out of the groove to let his lead-lap buddy go by. No one sees the hypocrisy in any of this, and I have no idea why. Is it because so many people have no principles any more? Is everyone willing to bend the rules, until it affects them negatively that is? Jeez, people are still bitching that Gordon didn't get a Chase berth! It's ridiculous!

Oh, and we still haven't addressed the jump of the final restart. I'm not Jimmie fan, you all know that, but I feel like he got screwed. They called him on the same shit twice (three times???), but they let Carl get away with it. To me, that just underlines the earlier statement I made about the hypocrisy and politically expedient decision making that is rampant in this sport.

Maybe Dodge was right to pull out. I'm wondering if NASCAR has another generation left??? (It's sad to type/think/say that, but I feel it may be the case nonetheless.)

Simcik wrote:Maybe Dodge was right to pull out. I'm wondering if NASCAR has another generation left??? (It's sad to type/think/say that, but I feel it may be the case nonetheless.)

Spoken like a true/bitter fan boy.   Look the reason why you get in the Chase is based on results and MWR.... Basically Ty Norris on the box for the 55 negated that by attempting to engineer the results rather than let the best man win( or in this case get in the chase).   I stand by the decision and totally agree that this had to be made to tell teams that if youre gonna rig race outcomes then you best be way better at covering your tracks.   Just listened to Waltrip talk to RaceHub about what happened.   Waltrip said he sat down with Helton and explained why they made the moves they made and Waltrip then said that he understands why Nascar made the penalty.   Its a hard situation to be in and had Nascar let it go there would have been equal internet rage about it so either way haters gonna hate I suppose.  Im done on the subject.  I realize attempting to explain the complexity is not going to change anything and I might as well bludgeon my head.

Here's the thing.  NASCAR is well within their rights to make the call and rule 12.4 exists just for this reason.  The MAJORITY of fans knew it was cheap and dirty and was NOT racing.  The product takes a hit when this happens.  MWR's actions Saturday night were absolutely "detrimental to stock car racing."  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.  You can cry "INCONSISTANCY" or "CONSPIRACY" all you want.  Fact is, most people in and around the sport agree with it.

So, if all knowing Dodge pulled out, maybe you should do the same Sim.  Shit, they probably had some foreknowledge on this whole subject, seeing as NASCAR is constantly scheming and petting their hairless cats.  I mean, it's a joke right?  Maybe I should ask CoolBreeze.

Okay, before this gets any more personal (Why, by the way? Not really sure I deserved that...), let's take a step back.

People my age and younger ARE NOT turning on NASCAR. They don't understand how these are stock cars, they don't like the politics, they don't like the inconsistent rules. NASCAR's own studies show this - they're trying to fix it. That's why they are worried about their image - that's why they acted in this case.

Let me get one thing clear. I do think what MWR did was wrong. Completely. I don't like it at all. BUT, I want NASCAR to be consistent. IF they are going to come down hard on MWR, they have to come down hard on everyone, all the time. There can't be a gray area here.

It seems to me that if there had been no audio of this, that most of it would have been over and done with by know. Some people would be saying something about it, but most people would be talking about Chicagoland. Tux, earlier you mentioned there was no audio of JJ doing anything fishy before he hit the wall. Can you verify that? Was the radio broadcast reexamined and played, over and over again? I haven't heard anything. Now, don't misunderstand me, I think that he had a tire go down, and that's it. It would appear at the moment that there's no smoke for people to fan into a fire, but have we looked at it with the same fervor yet??? I don't think so. So, where's the fairness? If an intentional spin/pit/whatever is bad, doesn't that mean that ALL intentional acts are bad? And how do we tell the difference? How many coincidences have to line up? 2? 3? 17?

All I want out of this sport is fairness in the enforcement of the rules, and it seems like that is the last thing NASCAR cares about. I wish the treated restarts and "actions detrimental to NASCAR" like they do tech inspections, where everyone is held to the same standard. This whole body of work thing is a cop-out, so is penalizing 1 team that is only doing what others have done and are doing just to make some fans on Twitter happy.

I think MWR is wrong, but I think NASCAR should have let the fans/sponsors/whoever else punish them. All NASCAR has done now is set themselves up for more scrutiny and more hypocritical rulings, and all that will do is drive away casual fans, meaning that when all the hardcore, older fans are dead and gone, there will be no one there to support the sport. That's what I'm upset about, because it will mean the end of NASCAR.

And maybe the Dodge comment was kinda out of place, but the more and more I try to make sense of NASCAR, the less and less it makes any sense at all. I can understand why a manufacturer would say it's not worth the investment. Especially since none of the on-track technology influences the showroom technology now. I have many motorsports fans (you guys included) who love cars, love racing, but hate NASCAR. Despite my love for it, I can UNDERSTAND why they feel the way they do. I'm frustrated by the inconsistencies, and I understand the rationale behind moreso than casual fans.

And for crying out loud, can we not make this personal? We can all disagree without you guys insulting me. My opinion may be different, but it's valid nonetheless. I don't mind rebuttals, but please do it with different points/facts/merits/figures/rationale/citations/etc. and not with insults. As far as I see it, we're all friends and equals here, and I'm doing my best to keep this civil because, well, damnit, I like and respect you guys. Please do the same for me.