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Twin Charging & Gasoline

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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  StalkerStang on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:44 pm

HAHA, fuck I couldn't resist....


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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  Simcik on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:11 pm

Holy crap, I'm a genius!

There is a simple solution to this, but I'm afraid to tell you all - you theiving Richards...

Okay, so here goes:

PATENT PENDING - Simcik Racing, 2013

Utilize the best of both worlds. A crank-driven pulley and shaft are run into a conventional turbo housing. Exhaust gasses are pumped to the apparatus as usual. An electronically-controlled clutch is located within the pulley, allowing it to spin nearly freely.

At low engine speeds, the clutch is engaged, spinning the impeller to the desired speed to produce boost just like a traditional supercharger. At the appropriate RPM, the clutch is disengaged, allowing the device to function as a traditional turbo.

This is essentially twin-charging, but it is done with a single device with only one impeller needed.

Pic to come later.

PATENT PENDING - Simcik Racing, 2013.
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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:08 pm

That's an interesting solution, Sim.

How about a supercharged turbocharger? I see this working with current centrifugal supercharger design and a redesign for the turbine half of current turbochargers. This would be accomplished by inserting a turbocharger's turbine wheel into the output side of the supercharger. The turbocharger's drive impeller would have to be reshaped to spin in an inline flow coming out of the supercharger.

The goal is to drive the turbocharger's turbine wheel (and thus its compressor wheel) without the need for the engine to produce exhaust gasses.
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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  TuxTshirt on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:24 pm

Simcik wrote:Holy crap, I'm a genius!

There is a simple solution to this, but I'm afraid to tell you all - you theiving Richards...

Okay, so here goes:

PATENT PENDING - Simcik Racing, 2013

Utilize the best of both worlds. A crank-driven pulley and shaft are run into a conventional turbo housing. Exhaust gasses are pumped to the apparatus as usual. An electronically-controlled clutch is located within the pulley, allowing it to spin nearly freely.

At low engine speeds, the clutch is engaged, spinning the impeller to the desired speed to produce boost just like a traditional supercharger. At the appropriate RPM, the clutch is disengaged, allowing the device to function as a traditional turbo.

This is essentially twin-charging, but it is done with a single device with only one impeller needed.

Pic to come later.

PATENT PENDING - Simcik Racing, 2013.

Except it will still build boost like a turbo/centrifugal SC because, as you said, it's a conventional turbo construction. The redundant drive is just that, redundant. If you want to build boost as a turbo does, just use a turbo. I understand that you mean, it will build quicker, but so would a smaller turbo. You could get the same driveability twin turbocharging, i.e. one small, one large or with variable displacement.

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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  Simcik on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:03 pm

I was thinking one larger turbo. Essentially my idea would be to use the pulley in times when the turbo would be lagging, like cruising on the highway and during low-rpm launches. If also means better packaging for some items, like exhaust and intake, compared to a twin-turbo. Hey, just a thought, man - don't hate... Cool

A nice benefit would be that the crank-driven turbo would create suction in the exhaust, allowing the engine to breath easier. This would be very, very noticable during cruising, as the low power required to spin the charger would probably be neglected by the exhaust vaccum advantage...
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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  Simcik on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:08 pm

Avanti 63r1025 wrote:...The goal is to drive the turbocharger's turbine wheel (and thus its compressor wheel) without the need for the engine to produce exhaust gasses.

That's exactly what I'm doing - but using only one component, not two.
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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  StalkerStang on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:12 am

Still saying, proper turbo set-up for its intended usage = no need for supercharger.

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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:20 am

Yeah Sim, I was just thinking of different ways to route a twincharged setup and to use the already fast moving air downstream of the supercharger to drive the turbine side of a turbo.

We got it Stalker, you like the turbo setup. Very Happy It's out there, it's established, lots of people/companies use it and it works wonderfully. I'm not doubting its capabilities. I'm kicking unconventional ideas around the table while trying to objectively look at twincharging. It's hard for me to be objective though because I like the 'unconventional'; I'm a fan of thinking outside the box.

I would question your statement and point back to a couple inline 4s: the 1.4L VW TSi engine and the 2L GM Ecotec modified by DDMWorks for the Ariel Atom. These utilize twincharged setups and they work great for what they are. The '80s Lancia S4 also used a twincharged setup and performed rather well in rally racing.
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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  Ex US Squid on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:19 am

Well I truly feel that Turbos are the best option right now. But in the coming years who knows.... heres a better answer to your idea Sim from Mr. Koenigggseegggggssgeeggegggsggggg. Go to 8:40 for the Turbo pressure solution. But better yet watch the whole vid cause this new valve tech will be in use by alot of companies real soon and its a cam shaft replacement. I like it. Hadnt heard of it before but I like what Im hearing now!


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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  OLDFenderBender on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:23 am

I want to say that the valve tech has been around for awhile though, since 1989 or so, with some F1 teams and the majority of MotoGP in recent years. And it only has stayed with the racing scene as of yet.

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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:27 pm

I got your turbochargers right here …

Oh wait, technically these are superchargers.

I stumbled across Rotrex brand superchargers Fall '09 while researching a Jackson Racing supercharger for my Miata. Jackson switched from the twin-screw positive displacement supercharger and went to this design, the design I call a belt-driven turbocharger and I'm sure you can see why I call it that. Rotrex blowers come in various sizes and can spin the compressor impeller to 220k RPM and beyond.

Squid, I'm glad you bring up Koenigsegg because he uses two of these on his CCX builds. This is his version of twin turbos.
Rotrex website wrote:With the unique combination of compactness and efficiency, the Rotrex supercharger leads the way in drivable, high performance supercharged applications.

Where the efficiencies of the Roots- and screw-type superchargers trail off at higher pressure ratios, Rotrex continues to provide the best thermodynamic efficiency under extreme conditions. This has been demonstrated on a number of high performance applications, such as the Twin-charged Koenigsegg CCX and Koenigsegg CCXR.

Compared to traditional centrifugal superchargers, the Rotrex unit offers superior boost at lower engine speeds due to its inherent capability to accommodate high speed impeller designs. This virtue is essential for compact applications requiring more torque at low engine speeds than is usually achievable with centrifugal superchargers.
Note twin-charged in this sense means two superchargers. Not in the sense people have come to mean one turbocharger & one supercharger.

Sim, if you were wanting to belt drive a turbocharger & exhaust drive a supercharger in one device, I'd start with what Jackson has today as they really are close to using a supercharger in a turbocharger's housing.

Tux, it's ironic you bring up air-conditioning, both crank driven and electronically driven. I'm reminded of Mark Kibort's 928 running an electric supercharger [he was running sponsorship stickers on both doors, both rocker panels, the wing end plates, and the hood]. A friend of mine got to talking to him about the e·RAM. M. Kibort said, "It's not too bad if you don't expect a lot out of it." This was a case where the rule set didn't specify that he couldn't use an electronically driven supercharger, so he put one on the car.


Twincharge setups, two superchargers (Bill Cosby's Cobra, the R5 equipped Avanti, C.V. Koenigsegg's cars), the Rotrex supercharger, Bosch's variable flow turbochargers: I like 'em! What other new cool shit can we play with?
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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:40 pm

Quote clipped from Jalopnik article about VW's double clutch ten-speed manual transmission.
Travis Okulski wrote:Winterkorn also let it drop that VW is developing a diesel engine capable to 134 horsepower per liter thanks to a combination of a turbo and an electric supercharger. That's truly astounding.
One turbo, one electric supercharger. Very interesting.
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Re: Twin Charging & Gasoline

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