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Hate me if you want...

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Re: Hate me if you want...

Post  TuxTshirt on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:32 pm

The more I ponder this, the more I would like to apologize Sim. My intention was not to insult you. More to point out your perceived bias. Since I publically called you a fanboy, I'll publically apologize.


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Re: Hate me if you want...

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:55 pm

Cars fit the time period in which they were designed. Shall we talk about the finned fifties? Buick, Cadillac, Chrysler, Ford … fins were in, dude!

150 years from today, if any current Corvettes are around, an automotive historian will be able to take one look at the car and say, "Oh yes, this is a Corvette. It was built in the early two-thousands. I want to say in the two-thousand tens time period, perhaps a little sooner or perhaps a little later as these styling cues were popular at that time. And would you take a look at those antiquated HID lights? So lame! Ha ha ha!"

Parallel to today's world where my dad and that generation say, "That's a '37 Cord." or "Look at this '51 Cadillac." I honestly could not identify, 100% of the time, what car was what if we were to go back to the '30s era. For one, there were a lot of auto manufacturers which are now belly-up: Packard, Cord, Duesenburg, Hispano Suiza, and more. Secondly, the styling was similar. Insert mantra, "styling fits the time" here.

Raymond Loewy, the man who designed the Avanti, also designed the livery of Air Force 1, he designed busses, locomotives, the Shell & Exxon logos, and more. It's no mistake that from a birds-eye view, the Avanti takes the Coke bottle shape: long hood, short deck, with the pinched-in mid section.
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Re: Hate me if you want...

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:18 pm

Simcik wrote:…And, as Avanti pointed out, those springs aren't really a GM thing. Bose made/makes them, and sells them to several companies. GM just did a good job marketing them.
The Bose suspension is a whole separate animal than the magnetic shocks GM has on their cars. Perhaps some of the same technologies are being used, but GM still uses sway bars, the BOSE system did away with those completely.

"General Motors "Magnetic Ride Control" goes back to 2002 on a Cadillac and 2003 on Corvettes. It is also currently used on other GM brands, including Australia's Holden.

"Magnetic Ride Control" uses a fluid that changes viscosity (think warm water Vs cold mollasses in your hydraulic damper ) depending on the strength (and maybe orientation) of the fluids exposure to a changing magnetic field. It's not a magnetic suspension like the Bose." -Dave B13 on gizmag.com

Simcik wrote:And Furthermore, Avanti, I didn't see any C2 or C3 'Vettes with a recessed rear glass. That's more a 599 or Lambo thing in the world of Supercars anyway. …
The C2 and C3 styling cues I was calling into question were the shape, not the specific details. Akin to looking through a translucent (not transparent, not opaque) glass shower door and being able to tell there's definitely a white woman in the shower, but the specific details are blurred. C2 and C7 share a tapered rear upper deck. C3 and C7 share the front fender arches and hood line.
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Re: Hate me if you want...

Post  Simcik on Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:08 pm

You guys make decent points, however, I maintain that this doesn't scream "Corvette." I understand the need to adapt, to update, but there's a limit to that. At some point, the name is just the name. Take Dart for example.

Take the badges off this thing, and ask a normal person (not a car guy) what it is... It won't scream Corvette to them. No matter what they say, show them a pic of the 599 with no badges, and ask them again. What will they say?

I think the only reason they put "Stingray" on this thing is to get people excited and make them look past the lack of actual Stingray cues...

And on the pricing, they've now set themselves up for failure. Most people who bought Corvettes didn't buy Z06s or ZR1s, no, they bought base models. It was an attainable Supercar. You had a good starting point and that was fine for most people, and you could upgrade it easily. Not so much now. There isn't going to be a $50-60K version anymore. That was always a big selling point. No longer. Corvette is now directly competing with Viper, Porsche, Ferrari, Masserati, Jaguar, and others like them. For the price, will the Corvette be competitive? On ALL fronts?

A perfect example: people cross-shopping a Porsche, old Viper, and old Corvette. The Porsche gave you a great all-around sports car. Great chassis and handling, good ride, nice interior and content, good power. The Viper was faster, more of a racecar, but lacked comfort and content. The price was similar. The Corvette was the wildcard. It had a good chassis, decent power, and acceptable comfort. It handled well, and was a good car, but it wasn't the best in any category. It was, however, the cheapest, and had lots of potential. It was acceptable for both comfort and performance, and it was attainable. That makes it quite enticing.

Also, it used be able to compete with used cars well due to its low price. Used Viper or new 'Vette? No longer...

So, it's lost its identity. It will also lose market share. In a few short years, if GM is still able to, we'll see a C8 trying to correct these issues.
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Re: Hate me if you want...

Post  Smus on Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:42 pm

I'll call your C6 and raise you a MY 1996 550 Maranello



C6 Corvette: MY debut-2005


Ferrari 599: MY debut-2007


TuxTshirt wrote:
Who's copying who here? I could argue your point the other way all day long. Fact is, they're both sports cars, and I'll take a Vette any day over the Jag or the Benz.

Now, the C6 also had many new features, namely the body-colored headlight bezels...







TuxTshirt wrote:
Oh yeah, and who borrowed who's shock damper design. I believe it was Ferrari doing the borrowing from GM and Delphi.

I won't argue. Why waste money when someone has spent all the money to figure out a good system? Although the engineering argument is a moot point, as Ferrari and their parent company FIAT have contributed plenty.

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Re: Hate me if you want...

Post  TuxTshirt on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:37 pm

Simcik wrote:You guys make decent points, however, I maintain that this doesn't scream "Corvette." I understand the need to adapt, to update, but there's a limit to that. At some point, the name is just the name. Take Dart for example.

Take the badges off this thing, and ask a normal person (not a car guy) what it is... It won't scream Corvette to them. No matter what they say, show them a pic of the 599 with no badges, and ask them again. What will they say?
I think the only reason they put "Stingray" on this thing is to get people excited and make them look past the lack of actual Stingray cues...

And on the pricing, they've now set themselves up for failure. Most people who bought Corvettes didn't buy Z06s or ZR1s, no, they bought base models. It was an attainable Supercar. You had a good starting point and that was fine for most people, and you could upgrade it easily. Not so much now. There isn't going to be a $50-60K version anymore. That was always a big selling point. No longer. Corvette is now directly competing with Viper, Porsche, Ferrari, Masserati, Jaguar, and others like them. For the price, will the Corvette be competitive? On ALL fronts?

A perfect example: people cross-shopping a Porsche, old Viper, and old Corvette. The Porsche gave you a great all-around sports car. Great chassis and handling, good ride, nice interior and content, good power. The Viper was faster, more of a racecar, but lacked comfort and content. The price was similar. The Corvette was the wildcard. It had a good chassis, decent power, and acceptable comfort. It handled well, and was a good car, but it wasn't the best in any category. It was, however, the cheapest, and had lots of potential. It was acceptable for both comfort and performance, and it was attainable. That makes it quite enticing.

Also, it used be able to compete with used cars well due to its low price. Used Viper or new 'Vette? No longer...

So, it's lost its identity. It will also lose market share. In a few short years, if GM is still able to, we'll see a C8 trying to correct these issues.

I think the "non car guy" wouldn't know the 599. He might say, "um, some kinda Ferrari?" The point is, it's not out yet.

On the price, you say the base Corvette is directly competing with Viper? The base Viper is $100,000. That's a $30,000 difference bud(you could buy a nice C6 for that much). This new base Corvette will almost match the outgoing Z06, I'd say they're doing quite well compared to the competition. Check your stuff, it still fits close to where it was. Everything's going up, remember? You can't buy a Hyundai for $9,000 anymore either. See "Political" thread.

And Smus, I could say the '07 599 looks more like the C6, than the C6 looks like the Marenello. So they're both yellow. Thing is, that's NOT my point. My point is, there are similarities across the board. I could admit just as easily as you could that each looks SIMILAR to the last. Ferrari doesn't build Corvettes, Chevrolet doesn't build 599s, and Dodge builds neither of the above. To look at the new Corvette and assume the designers just gave up and stole design cues from various other cars because they had nothing better is completely ignorant. Look at the evolution of the sedan for example. Groups of cars change over time. Acceptable and fuctional designs evolve so there will always be similarities but most maintain a uniqueness. I CAN see similar features, however I also see a completely different machine. Check the link I posted earlier, if you can't see it as a unique vehicle as a whole, I believe you are fooling yourself. No pictures or silly debates will sway me.

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Re: Hate me if you want...

Post  TuxTshirt on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:46 pm

Let me show you guys what flat-out robbery looks like.




Even down to the bumperettes under the headlights. Let's keep things in focus here.

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Re: Hate me if you want...

Post  Simcik on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:52 pm

Okay, okay, I was gonna wait until we find more out about the pricing and what not, but this just made me laugh.

Really?

http://www.chevrolet.com/new-2014-corvette/

"Enemy of the Same?" Should be "More of the Same."
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Re: Hate me if you want...

Post  Simcik on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:03 pm

Haha - true. Kia takes the cake on that one.
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Re: Hate me if you want...

Post  Smus on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:05 pm

To compare the sedan segment (which still has unique vehicles and designs) to the sports car segment is a poor argument. Say what you will, I see a lot of similarities between the 599 and the C7 than the 599 and the C6. The Maranello and the C6 was a stretch but some of the looks and lines are very close.

The reason I threw up the pictures of the Jag, Merc, and Viper was to show that not all FR sports cars are similar, and they are unique. Not to take anything away from the Chevrolet designers who built the body on the C7, I found it curious even when the rendering in 2011 was leaked of the similarities to the 599 in a lot of design features. Now I can't find the designer who built the body for the Corvette, and maybe it was done by committee, if that's the case whoever decided that black plastic trim was great for the Z51 package should be taken behind the woodshed. I want to like the C7, I really do, but it just looks like an SRT Viper and a C6 had a kid who lost a battle with a protractor.


I think I've stumbled on to why I dislike the rear of the car so much. It just looks cartoony and almost Transformer like...just too many angles and colors and shapes all in one package. Like I said before, if the trim would be matched to the body color it would be immensely better IMO...

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Re: Hate me if you want...

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