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Digital school of driving

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Digital school of driving

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:32 am

Full title goes really long: Digital school of driving featuring Forza Motorsport 4 and FastLapSim 5

I helped lowrider with some one-on-one time months ago. If I recall correctly, he ended up racing 40-somethin' laps at Indianapolis Grand Prix while I chattered away in his ear and made suggestive improvements to his line and racing actions. Tux and Squid helped Simcik during season I of American Iron in much the same manner.

I heard during our previous Grand-Am race lowrider learned a lot from our one-on-one session and asked if the school would open again. In recent T/A practice Simcik was asking if the school could open again. There could be something to this Forza Motorsport school of driving.

I recently bought the three new versions of ProRacingSim software which includes FastLapSim 5. This is software that maps the fastest line around many real world tracks. You would be surprised to see how it suggests we drive the main straight of Road America but I'll cover that in a later post. If we are to use FLS5 in conjunction with Forza we are limited to their commonalities. Below are screen captures of available cars and tracks:




I see ↑ errors and I'm sure you do too. Don't worry about vehicle stats because they can be manually inputted. The important thing is P.R.S. found detailed information regarding every car. It's with all of this information that FLS5 can output a best lap time. We can use this lap time as the proverbial dangling carrot and help you become a faster racer.

My line of thinking goes like this: You select a chassis and a track from the lists above. I can input the Forza statistics for your car (gear ratios, TQ & HP curves, weight, spring rates, et al.) and we can work on making you a faster racer. We can also input alternate information into FLS5 to determine if a different setup would be faster.

Don't worry if FLS5 lists a car that's not exactly in Forza. FLS5 lists a 1995 Corvette but Forza Motorsport has a 1996 Corvette. They're the same in the sense they're of the same generational design so Forza's '96 Grand Sport would be a viable option. I don't know which '87 Mustang they modeled. I guess whichever trim is closest to 3162 lbs. Stalker, would that be an '87 GT or LX weight and if so, is the '93 Cobra R a close enough fit (in terms of aerodynamics) that it could be used?

I can input tidbits of information and whatever suspension setup you desire. The Cd, weight distribution, frontal area, etc. should be the same. If values aren't the same we have to do some Internet research and find them. What values?

Fairly detailed stuff, yo.

FastLapSim 5 is a cheaper version of what the Top Gear crew used when Sir Jackie Stewart helped James "Captain Slow" May at Oulton Park. If you haven't seen that episode, here it is:


James covers one of my flaws in a voice-over from 7:34 to 7:41 but don't skip ahead. Watch the whole segment and listen for it.

FLS5 also comes with a track editor. It's quite difficult to make a new track (width of track, straight lengths, elevation changes, angles of curves, and more) but it's possible. If I had time and a better understanding of FLS5 I would input the Sports Car course of Sears Point in a heartbeat.
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Simcik on Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:00 am

When does enrollment begin?
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  StalkerStang on Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:16 pm

Avanti 63r1025 wrote: I don't know which '87 Mustang they modeled. I guess whichever trim is closest to 3162 lbs. Stalker, would that be an '87 GT or LX weight and if so, is the '93 Cobra R a close enough fit (in terms of aerodynamics) that it could be used?

That weight sounds like an 87 LX hatchback. The 93 Cobra R checks in at 3089 lbs. Even though the Cobra and Cobra R have a bit better aerodynamic advantage, its probably minimal.

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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  sbclowrider on Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:20 pm

im in for sure!! I could use more help.
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:55 pm

Simcik wrote:When does enrollment begin?
We can open enrollment as soon as season I of Tux's Grand-Am series closes. Days and times here can be flexible.
StalkerStang wrote:That weight sounds like an 87 LX hatchback. The 93 Cobra R checks in at 3089 lbs. Even though the Cobra and Cobra R have a bit better aerodynamic advantage, its probably minimal.
I can enter/alter the weight to match what the Forza student does to their car. I'm concerned with the frontal area and Cd differences between FLS5's 1987 Mustang & Forza's 1993 Cobra R. I can alter those figures also though that data is sometimes difficult to find.
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  StalkerStang on Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:30 pm

I doubt its much difference. The basic body and underpinnings are the same, the hood is also the same. Both the LX and Cobra have a spoiler of some sort, although the Cobra one sits higher. The only difference is the ground effects.

Even in the real AI racing, the guys that are concerned with aerodynamics put huge front splitters on the cars anyways, and leave the rest of the body stock (save for the wing).

I'd be down for non ABS braking training.

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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:30 pm

I can hear it now, "Why didn't you post these before our Grand-Am event at Road America!?" I was trying to do more with the media, as usual. I wanted to make these look better than rough screen captures. I'm still trying to roll the two vertical pictures 90° and match the formatting of the other images, though that can wait.

For obvious reasons I kept to tracks common to Forza Motorsport. Click to see full size and another window will open. From there you may download the files. The green line shows the fastest path around each track.

Road America


Indianapolis Grand Prix


Catalunya


Nürburgring Grand Prix


Suzuka


Silverstone


Hockenheim
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Simcik on Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:06 pm

I don't think we race that version of Indy... The S is too tight...
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  TuxTshirt on Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:22 pm

Hockenheim isn't right either. Pretty cool stuff though Avanti.

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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Ex US Squid on Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:33 pm

Indy doesnt look off but the Hock is a old elongated version that was updated what?... like 20 years ago? 15?

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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:35 pm

Yeah, I too noticed the irregularities you've mentioned but figured I would post the pictures regardless. I have a feeling the courses modeled were of ProRacing Sim's choice. Ex. they include the 1976 version of Monza but not a more recent venue.

I can relax the Indianapolis esses and also delete anchor points to create alternate Suzuka and Catalunya tracks, but those are for after I'm more comfortable with the software.

The Indianpolis Grand Prix track has a tighter 'S' in FastLap Sim; the version Forza has is a relaxed 'S'. I am pretty sure after the F1 debacle there, Indianapolis changed its configuration.

Edit follows

I've done more research. Indianapolis Motor Speedway changed it's U.S. Grand Prix layout between 2007 & 2008 for motorcycle racing. Notice Moto G.P. races the roval in a typical CCW roval direction while F1 races the roval in a typical CW road course direction. FastLapSim designers used the U.S.G.P. layout. I should be able to make the digital change, as the software doesn't appear too difficult to figure.

Moto G.P. (2008 - present)


U.S. G.P. (2000 - 2007)


Looking above we see Moto's turns 7 & 8 correspond to F1's turns 9 & 10 with the Moto configuration more relaxed in that area, just like Turn 10 designed. Moto G.P. also changed NASCAR turn 1 (the southwest corner of the track) into a road course, probably to slow their speeds going into NASCAR turn 2.


Last edited by Avanti 63r1025 on Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edited section noted)
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:49 pm

So let's roll this ball a little. From one of the above car lists select a chassis also in Forza. Again, don't worry if the listed weight is incorrect, I can change that. The year also doesn't matter as long as your chosen platform is of a common generational design.

In this digital school of driving, less is more. Once you're a better driver with fewer resources (power, grip, et al) you can carry over that knowledge to vehicles with more power and more grip. For this reason I'd like to work with the stock engine. Also continuing the "less is more" approach, I would prefer working with 4-cylinder Hondas ('97 Integra, '01 Civic) over powerful cars. I understand the common vehicle overlap between FastLapSim and Forza are few so cars like the '87 Mustang, '69 Camaro, '95 Corvette, '97 Supra, '88 944, or the aforementioned Hondas would be acceptable.

Here is where I need your involvement. I need torque data from your chosen car. You're going to drive this car on a straight and long piece of track. You don't have to finish any number of laps, even one, you only need to have access to the replay once you decide you are finished. Drive to your chosen long straight and stop. Shift your car into top gear and floor the accelerator all the way to the rev. limiter. Top gear? Trust me, you'll appreciate how slow the power numbers advance in the replay. The car will want to stall and will be sluggish until thirty miles per hour but stick through it.

Drive your car with these few things in mind: You're going to tell me the starting RPM value (example: 1500), the number of rev's between values (example: 250), and the total number of values (example: 23 / which would give 7000 RPM as last value). I need all torque figures and their corresponding engine revolutions. Torque will start high, peak, and drop. That's fine, stick with torque and don't (mistakenly or otherwise) shift to horsepower readings. You have up to twenty-eight pairings to go from [near] idle to the rev. limiter, so divide your overall rev. range accordingly.

Post your results in this thread. List the car(s) you tested, then below list the RPM and torque pairings.
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:28 pm

StalkerStang wrote:…I'd be down for non ABS braking training.
I've been meaning to post this ever since I first started playing on your former system. Find someone with a great condition early manufacturer 360 controller. My previous system was the 360 Elite bought in '08 and that's the controller I have.

I started playing Forza with your former equipment, controller included. Without altering any deadzone or car tuning settings, it was neigh impossible for me to brake without locking up.

My findings between the two controllers are, the S controllers are far more sensitive. I've switched to playing Forza with my old controller because even with 140+% brake pressure in my tuning settings, I can pull that brake trigger almost all the way without experiencing lock-up. It is much easier for me to race with the old controller than it is for me to race with the S controller.

We could also hit the track some time if that would help though I wanted to put this information out there.
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  StalkerStang on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:45 pm

Makes sense, it seemed to me every time I touched the brake trigger, the tires locked up.

But now that I have raced the Stealth enough in non ABS form, I can manage it much better. Still sucks though.

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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Sorta05 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:59 pm

I know this probably isn't helpful but it's much easier to threshold brake with the brake pedal controllers then these crap controllers. I saw some pretty innovative ideas for doing hand held controllers that would be easier to use for racing. In fact I had a pretty good idea for a controller if I could figure out a way to make it work. There is already a perfect hand held controller for cars... R/C car controllers... you know the ones with the wheel and the trigger? Not sure about shifting but it seems like that would work a lot better then the xbox controllers.
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Simcik on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:10 am

Sorta, you could easily modify a controller to have a pedal. You would need to know how to solder, and you need something to use for your pedal. All those little triggers are are potentiometers...
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:57 am

Sent private messages to a couple racers. Let's do this.
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  TuxTshirt on Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:21 am

I figured this would be a good spot for this video.  I wanted to show you guys this awesome software that works with iRacing.  It would be sweet if they could implement something like this in Forza.  It's a lap analyzer called iSpeed.  Check it out:


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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Simcik on Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:37 pm

Awesome find! I'll be downloading that when I get home. Maybe I can finally figure out where I'm losing those 2 tenths at USA Speedway...
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Sorta05 on Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:05 pm

Thanks for sharing Tux!  Do you know how they deal with comparing different laps from different iracing builds?  I find this to be frustrating when I'm looking at the lap time record boards, as they don't ever seem to reset the times after updating the model.
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Remaggib on Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:27 pm

It'll be something for me to look into, once I can get back into iRacing more. I've been in far too much pain to sit still for very long lately, just waiting for my surgery. Still waiting.  Sad
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  TuxTshirt on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:59 pm

Sorta05 wrote:Thanks for sharing Tux!  Do you know how they deal with comparing different laps from different iracing builds?  I find this to be frustrating when I'm looking at the lap time record boards, as they don't ever seem to reset the times after updating the model.
It doesn't differentiate between builds.  It also only registers laps that other iSpeed users have run.  It doesn't matter at all though.  Stick to the "one second" rule and you'll improve.  There's always someone faster to learn from.  Let me know if you need help, I can do a better tutorial if I need to.  That one was a quick sample with a few misinterpretations.

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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Sorta05 on Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:04 am

Tux,

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I think it will matter.  As they change the tire physics and limits of grip (among other things) of the cars between builds sometimes.  For a few of my cars I can't touch my fastest lap times from when I first started racing in the game because they changed the laws of physics.  I have no doubt it will help if you can use recent lap data from similar builds though.
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:05 am

Excellent choice of parking stall (read: it fits great in here), and that software is impressive.
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Re: Digital school of driving

Post  TuxTshirt on Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:23 pm

Sorta05 wrote:Tux,

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I think it will matter.  As they change the tire physics and limits of grip (among other things) of the cars between builds sometimes.  For a few of my cars I can't touch my fastest lap times from when I first started racing in the game because they changed the laws of physics.  I have no doubt it will help if you can use recent lap data from similar builds though.

Correct, but your only hurdle is actually using the software to determine that.  I too have experienced the difference between tire models, however you can figure that out with the analyzer.  You could work on one corner and determine if the difference is the model.  I've used it, and it's obvious when it's the driver.  Also, the database labels the dates of the laps.  Just pick someone faster within the same time period.

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