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Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:48 pm

That's an awesome idea Sim. It's far, far too realistic though to be implemented Razz

Let's hope we can see Stop & Go or Stop & Hold penalties incorporated for the next Motorsport iteration. Turn 10 has eleven months remaining in their ALMS partnership and I see it being a difficult (difficult, not impossible) road to extend that partnership.

----- Rather than making a consecutive post, I'll make an amendment to this one. -----

So I'm watching the WTCC race at Sears Point and I'm noticing they're racing a configuration not available to us in Forza Motorsport. This idea would work for other tracks like Catalunya. Imagine if we could select which route to race. Imagine if we could highlight the route we wish to race (in green) and/or cover the part of the track we don't wish to race (in red) prior to the event.

This arises because the WTCC race at Sears Point route went like this: [No alternates from turns 1 to 5], Carousel (Sports Car course), Turn 7A (NASCAR), Turn 9 bypass (Indy & AMA), and the full turn 11 (Sports Car course). All turns are modeled in Forza Motorsport though that particular ribbon is not available. In racing at Catalunya I see portions of the track which are modeled though not available. I also see segments of the track that are only raced in certain ribbons but not available in others.
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:32 am

Whoa, nothing since September; October missed this thread. Time for a bump.

Forza knows centrifugal and positive displacement superchargers. Forza also knows single and twin turbochargers. What they don't know have to do with a few cars already in the game.

  • The Bugatti EB110 is quad-turbocharged which, to this point, Forza has only called it twin turbocharged. I would be interested in knowing if Turn 10 modeled the car as a quad turbocharged engine and called it twin turbocharged? Or if they could only model it as twin turbocharged?
  • The Koenigsegg CCXR is twin supercharged, "Twin Rotrex centrifugal superchargers with response system, 1.6 bar boost pressure." -courtesy Koenigsegg's website under the specification tab. Rotrex superchargers are an interesting creation. A very close approximation to a belt-driven turbocharger.
  • And lastly there's the Cobra build Bill Cosby spoke of in his stand-up 200 miles per hour.
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  StalkerStang on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:37 pm

Not only that, but if I remember correctly, the different forms of forced induction don't act like they should.

If you take the 00 Cobra R, it starts N/A, but you can make it single turbo, twin turbo, twin-screw s/c, or centrifugal s/c.

It seems the lag is simulated on both the turbo options with a dip around 1500 rpm or so, oddly enough the lag is worse with the twin set-up, and both turbo system make the same power and with the same curve. Generally with twins, you are using two smaller turbos, they spool up quicker, which translate to a reduced lag effect. Also with the single turbo, you have more potential to make more on the upper rpm since the turbo is larger and has better efficiency as the rpm's go up. The lag should be less with the twins, and the single should make more top end power.

The screw supercharger power curve doesn't look right to me. Usually with those blowers, the power comes on nearly right away with a huge flat torque curve that falls off as the rpm's go up.

This is a stock 03 Cobra dyno, look at that torque curve out of only 4.6L's.


The centrifugal seems to be the only accurate one, acting somewhat like a turbo, but without the lag, and less efficiency as the the rpm's go up.

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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Simcik on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:51 pm

Can we get a pace car and caution system? Make them something you can turn on or off.

And I still want the Stop & Go/Hold, or Drive-Thru penalties instead of sticky grass. And leave it all controlable. If you don't enter the pits on the next available attempt, your laps don't progress.

Oh, and FIX AERO DAMAGE!!! And have mechanical damage take more time to fix, depending on what is damged. (i.e. No 30 second engine swaps., but maybe a 1 minute shock change.)
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Smus on Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:59 am

Penalties would be too difficult to enforce (how's the computer to know intentional from unintended contact or race cutting [sticky grass]?).

The only issue I'd have with having a more realistic fix time like a 1 min shock change would be the issues of in race time would put you back too far if done in the pit box and there is only so much time down pit lane. I'd like to see fueling options and use the codemasters system like selecting tire options in F1 2010, with simple commands on the D-pad.

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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Remaggib on Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:36 am

Simcik wrote:Can we get a pace car and caution system? Make them something you can turn on or off.

And I still want the Stop & Go/Hold, or Drive-Thru penalties instead of sticky grass. And leave it all controlable. If you don't enter the pits on the next available attempt, your laps don't progress.

Oh, and FIX AERO DAMAGE!!! And have mechanical damage take more time to fix, depending on what is damged. (i.e. No 30 second engine swaps., but maybe a 1 minute shock change.)



They have all of that on iRacing Very Happy
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Simcik on Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:40 am

Yes, yes, I know... But they don't have us...

We can't run as many series, drive as many cars (there are no Mopars Sad ), or garauntee that we could race with each other...
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  TuxTshirt on Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:03 pm



These are current iRacing seasons.



This is just 2 pages of Leagues, there's more. As you can see, there's more racing than you have time.

And if you want to guarantee the same group:


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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Smus on Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:55 pm

Now not to get too "Debbie Downer" here, but the beauty of a console based game isn't that its perfect, as far as I can tell the current iRacers among us seem to make that pretty clear. However to play Forza 4, I do not need to rebuild my computer with a substantially stout graphics card, build or at least assemble a rig with at bare minimum wheel and pedal and then pay $50/ year for access with incredibly accurate and incredibly limited car and track selection, of which I can then purchase and expand for the same price as 3 old Forza car packs and 2 new ones.

If pure simulation is your goal, then yes the simulators are fantastic, but I can't justify putting hundreds into essentially a bespoke computer and monitor(s) setup, a good wheel set (because if I'm going to do it why cheap out on the part you use the most), and dedicated space to race. I can sit on my couch and play Forza with you guys, then play Madden, and then Skyrim all with a pretty cheap device that hooks up to the television I already own.

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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  TuxTshirt on Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:02 pm

I agree with you Smus. But let's not forget, it's the Forza players too, not just the "iRacers among us" have pointed out the majority of Forza shortcomings. This thread was started by all Forza players. And no, iRacing isn't "perfect" either. I've already stated some pros and cons of each.

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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Smus on Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:27 pm

Not to seem short, I do apologize, it election day...I get cranky on elections.

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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  TuxTshirt on Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:20 pm

You didn't seem short at all. Rock that vote Smus! Proceed with confidence.

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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  TuxTshirt on Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:53 pm

Smus wrote:incredibly accurate and incredibly limited car and track selection



Cars? Yes. Tracks? No way.

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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:56 pm

Yeah the track count for iRacing is amazing. As Tux showed iRacing has many locations and numerous official (ribbons/layouts) at each location. This is an ani.gif I created Mar. '11 and iRacing has since added more venues. I posted this to the official FM.net track wishlist thread after I made it.


iRacing does some things very well. Forza does other things very well. Why are they meeting in this thread about making Forza a better experience? Why, borrowing features, of course! Forza Motorsport and Gran Turismo have always been about buying a car off the showroom floor and upgrading it. Not all car games have followed the same recipe. However, every car game has features to inspire anyone looking to make their own or to enhance a current series.

Right from the start iRacing shoves purpose built race cars in your face. Must iRacing have any specific brand? No! iRacing is a simulation designed to make you a better racer. It's there to help you race in [player controlled] traffic, it's there to help you hone your line, it's there to help teach you tuning, it's there to help you understand racing a car at the very root of racing a car. I don't have iRacing though if I did, I would do what was needed to quickly get seat time in the Star Mazda, the SCCA Spec Racer Ford, or the Skip Barber Formula 2000. Is someone pissed if iRacing doesn't have a Viper? No! A Viper is unnecessary for iRacing to function as intended. One doesn't play iRacing for the car selection. One plays iRacing to better their racing wherewithal. I don't agree that cars are limited in iRacing.

From the start of Forza Motorsport you have the option of buying a car you could buy as a daily driver. Then you can race, save credits and buy a dream car. Rinse and repeat until you have an enormous garage filled with daily drivers and dream cars. Forza differs from iRacing here because Forza is all about padding their car count. They're about taking many cars, ripping out factory installed pieces and either removing them completely (weight reductions), or replacing them with lighter weight and more efficient components (exhaust upgrades). Is someone pissed if Forza doesn't have a Viper? They could be. A Viper may be unnecessary for Forza to function as intended though people are passionate about this specific car and may not buy the game if a Viper is omitted.

Forza or iRacing? Live for Speed or Gran Turismo? rFactor or Race Pro? Sports Car GT or Racer-X? The answer to these questions is the same as, "Which race school should I attend?" That answer is, "Yes!" As in, all of them; give them all your best effort. More of these experiences = better knowledge.

rFactor, Gran Turismo, iRacing, Live for Speed, Sports Car GT, Race Pro, and more have features Turn 10 and Playground Games could 'borrow' to make Forza (Motorsport / Horizon) a better, more fun experience while still being different than the others.
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Remaggib on Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:29 pm

Another plus of iRacing for me is that when I want to race, I never have to wait more than 2 hours to do so. The only time Forza hits my cd tray anymore is when I can make a series race. If anyone is ever online it's about 3 people total, and usually one is watching Netflix, one is playing NCAA or NBA or something, and the other will be away. Oh well, it's not for everyone, and I'm not going to push it on anyone. I will simply help as much as I can, and give you my name if you choose to join up, in hopes of having maybe a mini race or something with a few people someday. You can race with whoever you want, just pick a time and track and car and host a room. It costs something like $2 last I checked, but it's fun racing with people you know, even if it's just online.
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:16 pm

Improvements to brake compounds and in their characteristics.

Stock brake pads (original equipment) generally HATE heat. They stop well enough when cold because on our morning commute to work, we don't have to make repetitive stops from 80+ MPH. These pads have excellent cold bite and fade rapidly as heat builds.

As pad and rotor compounds are changed / enhanced, they start sacrificing cold bite for greater bite in warm → hot → scalding temperatures. Brake (pads & rotors), (shoes & drums) temperature modeling would be awesome.
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Sorta05 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:17 pm

Do any of the sims do that?
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:32 pm

You know, that's a great question. I don't know if any racing simulations take brake heat into account. Forza (amongst others) depicts the red hot brake rotors, though the only reason I can think they included that is for the photographers.

I thought of this because there are people (ran into commenter on YouTube) who still don't know that some brakes don't fade when the parts are 'warmed up'. It'd be nice if Forza used the brake parts text description to spread knowledge that there are heat resistant compounds and that these compounds actually work better when warm than they do when cool.
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  TuxTshirt on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:51 pm

I'm not sure if iRacing does this. I don't think it does.

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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Sorta05 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:04 pm

I think forza just treats stock and entry level stuff as if it doesn't brake as well as the upgraded tiers (lower coefficient of friction/unable to lock the brakes). Because forza isn't a hard core simulator I could just see all the 5 year old's everywhere throwing the game away in frustration of constantly running off the track due to brake fade. It also seems like it would be pretty hard to "feel" the brake fade like you do in a real car. In full up race cars as I understand it, brake fade is more or less a non issue, that is if everything is working correctly. If that's the case I wonder if there is any value added in modeling the brake temp/correlation of performance.
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  TuxTshirt on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:12 am

That's kinda what I was thinking Sorta. At least in iRacing anyway. They're all race prepped cars, so I imagine they don't deal with fade nearly as much or as drastic as a street car would.

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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Avanti 63r1025 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:54 am

Sorta05 wrote:I think forza just treats stock and entry level stuff as if it doesn't brake as well as the upgraded tiers (lower coefficient of friction/unable to lock the brakes).
I just tested some driving in Forza and even factory brakes can lock, which jives from what I've learned.

I recall a discussion on brakes from another forum, oh, the better part of a decade ago. In a nutshell what I took away from that discussion was: Stock brake systems are capable of locking. Since stock systems can lock, larger brake rotors can't make a car stop shorter because lock-up means the stock components can already supply more force than is needed. Larger brake pads give more initial bite. Larger brake rotors act as a larger heat sink (braking converts kinetic energy into heat energy). Different brake materials are used to be resistant to fade.
Sorta05 wrote:Because forza isn't a hard core simulator I could just see all the 5 year old's everywhere throwing the game away in frustration of constantly running off the track due to brake fade.
Yes, please! With the release of Horizon my hopes are that Motorsport is about to shift more to the hard core.
Sorta05 wrote:It also seems like it would be pretty hard to "feel" the brake fade like you do in a real car. In full up race cars as I understand it, brake fade is more or less a non issue, that is if everything is working correctly. If that's the case I wonder if there is any value added in modeling the brake temp/correlation of performance.
Feel will be an interesting thing to overcome. We also can't feel when the car's rear-end is about to step out, though the programmed sounds help us prepare for that moment. Turn 10 would have to replace the actual feel with an audible warning, like how a cricket in the real world warns when brake pad material is low.

Enhanced brake modeling also correlates to the idea of deteriorating components. Make Forza M. racers buy replacement tires, brake pads & rotors, spark plugs, et al.
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Simcik on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:03 am

Actually, with a force-feedback wheel, you can feel when the car starts to step out. You can also feel when it understeers. This actually caused me lots of trouble early on. Squid was helping me with tunes, and he was tuning them for a controller. If he understeered, he couldn't feel it, so he just held the stick hard to the right or left and put some rubber down on the track as he went around the turn. I, on the other hand, would back-off of my steering input to stop understeering - consequently, I'd go wide in the turn. After we started accounting for this, we were able to tune the car differently, and this was no longer as much of an issue.

But yes, Forza models that stuff, and you can feel it. Now if they could just do that with the damn pedals...
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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  Smus on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:21 am

Oh I'm sure force feedback pedals are in the works.

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Re: Current Forza shortcomings and new ideas

Post  TuxTshirt on Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:17 pm

Force feedback pedals aren't nearly as important as the wheel. The Fanatec clubsport pedals I have have feedback on the brake pedal only, and only for ABS cars. You can feel the pedal vibrate if ABS is activated. If you think about it, in a real car, the only real pedal that would experience noticeable changes would be the brake pedal. If you get fade, the pedal should get spongy and sink further. Or you could build up pressure by pumping it. But the accelerator is simply a pivot with a spring. What the car is doing doesn't affect the throttle blade unless the throttle sticks, or the spring breaks. The clutch shouldn't change much either unless there's a hydraulic failure. Truth is, the real feedback to the driver is in the wheel, the sound, their vision, and the forces on their body.

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